Hi all,

I have been a lifetime modeler who started out with rubber power in the late sixties (when I was 7), then control line, and in the early 80’s RC.

I have seen many changes in those years, and now we have seen technology push our love and hobby to a point where anyone with any skill can create a hazard to others. Many RC pilots spent years and a lot of money to hone our skills. However, now days anyone can by a cheap 5-pound quad and fly it anywhere they want. This has pushed the government to look out for others safety, and I don’t 100% disagree with that.

The AMA was to be our insurance and guaranty that we as modelers can do what we love. I have been a lifetime member of the AMA and have 100% supported them, but now, I feel they are only trying to control this to stay a corporation, and to protect their revenue stream. I have been too many clubs where the group is very professional and welcomes all, but I have also been to some which are ran like a fraternity, and not all is welcome. Where has the AMA been about that? I am not here to bash the AMA, but many of us have paid years into it, and in the end what have we gotten? I am asking this as an open question? I have always felt the AMA was “our” AMA, but how often have they really heard us. I have a few planes which are over 55 pounds. With the new FAA rule, I will need to get it registered as an unmanned aircraft. That is ok with me, but where does the AMA come into this now. It has to be more than just insurance.

I feel what the FAA is doing is ok, it’s just like what the UK did many years ago, and they have some awesome events and aircraft over there.

This is not a rant, but I would love to see some open discussion about what you all think this will mean in the end. I have no problem registering with the FAA to protect myself from the nuts who are slowly destroying our hobby. I have no problem with the FAA protecting the “experienced, safe pilot”. However, I am wondering what is the importance of the AMA now, what the FAA is doing, and how we “experienced and safe” model aviators are recognized.

Please do not make this a discussion on bashing anyone, but an open discussion on where we all think this is going.

Originally Posted by dag214

I have no problem registering with the FAA to protect myself from the nuts who are slowly destroying our hobby. I have no problem with the FAA protecting the “experienced, safe pilot”.

Friend, thank you for your years of support in this once-great hobby. However, if you think this is about any kind of "protection" or "safety" you are sadly mistaken. You should absolutely care about being forced at gunpoint (threat of imprisonment is at gunpoint) to register yourself to do something that should not be regulated, and in fact is PROHIBITED by Congress to be regulated by the FAA. Registration is regulation; it is regulating behavior, just like Obamacare did.

Where is the AMA in this? Sadly, way behind the curve, and seemingly only concerned with not losing membership to the fed's registration program. "Hey, hey, register with us instead!" They should have immediately announced a lawsuit the same day this unlawful registration scheme was announced. Instead, they waited to test the waters, see what the average modeler's reaction would be. What they saw scared them, so they finally took a tepid step forward.

Deleted post.

I honestly do think this is going to the courts. The FAA clearly has no legal authority (Pursuant to PL112 Sec.336(a) ) to make or enforce these regulations, and the first lawsuit they try to file is going to be thrown out.

Eventually congress will amend PL 112, and when they do so I hope they take into account the experience of the longtime RC community as well as AMA...

My issue with the registration isn't the registration itself. It's the principle of the FAA's actions. The clear illegality of what they've done illustrates that the registration process is a poorly disguised ruse meant to get as many new 'drone' operators on file as possible. I think the FAA is well aware that the majority of people who don't register is going to be longtime hobbyists. Furthermore I take issue with the fact that the FAA gave the AMA's position in the discussion little to no weight. I would very much like to see the FAA redraw these regulations, this time taking into account AMA's experience and going through the proper legal channels.

Originally Posted by Julezwatts

I honestly do think this is going to the courts. The FAA clearly has no legal authority (Pursuant to PL112 Sec.336(a) ) to make or enforce these regulations, and the first lawsuit they try to file is going to be thrown out.

Eventually congress will amend PL 112, and when they do so I hope they take into account the experience of the longtime RC community as well as AMA...

My issue with the registration isn't the registration itself. It's the principle of the FAA's actions. The clear illegality of what they've done illustrates that the registration process is a poorly disguised ruse meant to get as many new 'drone' operators on file as possible. I think the FAA is well aware that the majority of people who don't register is going to be longtime hobbyists. Furthermore I take issue with the fact that the FAA gave the AMA's position in the discussion little to no weight. I would very much like to see the FAA redraw these regulations, this time taking into account AMA's experience and going through the proper legal channels.

Hideeho
I agree with every thing you have stated except the highlighted section. I'm 99% sure that the VAST majority of people not registering will be people buying quads for Christmas for kids or significant others that have never flown anything before. I base this on the number of DJI Phantoms, Yuneec Q500's, Protocol Droniums & Galileos sold at the store I work at (a national level retail establishment that was represented on the panel of 25 that was set up by the DOT to advise the FAA on how to organize the registration of UAS's). My one store has sold TONS of these things (I would guestimate 300-400 including Black Friday sales). I guarantee my store has sold more than every hobby shop in the area & there are more locations of my companies store than there are hobby shops in the area. To make matters worse, my company has not made any sort of announcement about informing customers about registering before or after the sale. I asked several employees & people in management about registration & have searched my self & found no indication that my company has made any acknowledgment of registering at all. After mentioning it, & not as a direct order, but in round about way, I was advised to not mention it to customers at all unless the FAA announces a requirement to do so or the company decides on its own to do so. We do require the person who purchases the quad (I have seen it on DJI's & Yuneecs but not on Protocols) to be 18 years old or more. Although, I can not imagine my store manager denying a $1300 sale to a 16 year old kid with the money to buy it since there is no actual minimum age requirement at all.

Don't you feel safer now that we have registration in effect?

Originally Posted by Waflet

Don't you feel safer now that we have registration in effect?

Thanks for the knowledgeable report.

Everybody (at least in the hobby) pretty much knows at this point it's not really about safety.

I also see it like this.

So many (no model aviators) are getting these quads and flying them in places they should not be. Lets say a nut gets one in front of a full-scale plane and it gets hit. Blows out the windshield and the plane just makes it down. The FAA will go after that guy. Lets say he was not even registered, the worse for him.

Now lets say they see me flying one of my planes, they ask me what I am doing. I show my FAA registration and say "per the FAA I am good to go under the sUA program".

I am a full-scale pilot and really don't have a big problem with the FAA doing this since the quads came about. I only wish the AMA would behave more like the EAA and look out for all of us modelers. There are many AMA people which are not even modelers, but very few EAA people who are not deeply involved.

I do not see this as the FAA targeting us and looking somewhere to control, but looking at how to control the airspace from nuts who get a quad for Christmas and flying it in the approach to LAX. When someone opens a quad six months from now, and the paper work states you must registrar with the FAA, I bet they think twice about where they will fly.

DAG

Originally Posted by dag214

I also see it like this.

So many (no model aviators) are getting these quads and flying them in places they should not be. Lets say a nut gets one in front of a full-scale plane and it gets hit. Blows out the windshield and the plane just makes it down. The FAA will go after that guy. Lets say he was not even registered, the worse for him.

Now lets say they see me flying one of my planes, they ask me what I am doing. I show my FAA registration and say "per the FAA I am good to go under the sUA program".

I am a full-scale pilot and really don't have a big problem with the FAA doing this since the quads came about. I only wish the AMA would behave more like the EAA and look out for all of us modelers. There are many AMA people which are not even modelers, but very few EAA people who are not deeply involved.

I do not see this as the FAA targeting us and looking somewhere to control, but looking at how to control the airspace from nuts who get a quad for Christmas and flying it in the approach to LAX. When someone opens a quad six months from now, and the paper work states you must registrar with the FAA, I bet they think twice about where they will fly.

DAG

Hideeho
I have several issues with your arguments.

1. If a UAS hits a plane in the windshield hard enough to break it (a 10lb bird won't do it, will a 1lb UAS?), the person behind said windshield probably won't survive to land the plane. Considering virtually all UAS's are made from balsa, foam, plastic, lithium/polymers, & CF (all of which are flammable), the odds of enough pieces of the UAS surviving to get the pilots registration number is rather slim.

2. In the previous example, or any other case where the registration number can't be found, where will law enforcement go 1st to find a scape goat? you guessed it, the ready made list of suspects provided by their own free will.

3. Having the gestapo detain you & ask for your papers is not my idea of a good day on any day & should NEVER be allowed in the USA for any reason. With the way things are being presented by the FAA currently, the local law enforcement agency is going to be the ones doing ALL of the enforcement before an accident. The FAA is actively suggesting local law enforcement do EXACTLY that. That is presume everyone flying a UAS is guilty of not registering & request every pilot they see present papers to prove otherwise. This is a total perversion of the American justice system. This course of action requests local law enforcement presume everyone is guilty & places the burden of proof of innocence on the accused (guilty until proven innocent rather than innocent until proven guilty).

4. Unfortunately, I agree with you on this one. The AMA, so far, has given the appearance of only trying to increase it's membership through all this. I do have some hope they will get it right though. They did send out memo to all members asking them not to register until February 19 (the last day you can register a previously owned UAS & still be legal) to give them time to investigate possibilities of a law suit. We will see how that law suit is worded...

5. As it stands currently, there is NO requirement for the manufacturer to put anything in the box, or for the retailer to say anything about registration. Unless that changes, 6 months from now when little john gets a new DJI for his birthday he still won't know what the rules are & either him or his parents (if under 14) can face a $27,500 fine &/or 3 years in jail for just flying his birthday present in his back yard 10' off the ground.

So, explain to me again how this registration is a good thing...

Originally Posted by Waflet

Hideeho
I have several issues with your arguments.

1. If a UAS hits a plane in the windshield hard enough to break it (a 10lb bird won't do it, will a 1lb UAS?), the person behind said windshield probably won't survive to land the plane. Considering virtually all UAS's are made from balsa, foam, plastic, lithium/polymers, & CF (all of which are flammable), the odds of enough pieces of the UAS surviving to get the pilots registration number is rather slim.

2. In the previous example, or any other case where the registration number can't be found, where will law enforcement go 1st to find a scape goat? you guessed it, the ready made list of suspects provided by their own free will.

3. Having the gestapo detain you & ask for your papers is not my idea of a good day on any day & should NEVER be allowed in the USA for any reason. With the way things are being presented by the FAA currently, the local law enforcement agency is going to be the ones doing ALL of the enforcement before an accident. The FAA is actively suggesting local law enforcement do EXACTLY that. That is presume everyone flying a UAS is guilty of not registering & request every pilot they see present papers to prove otherwise. This is a total perversion of the American justice system. This course of action requests local law enforcement presume everyone is guilty & places the burden of proof of innocence on the accused (guilty until proven innocent rather than innocent until proven guilty).

4. Unfortunately, I agree with you on this one. The AMA, so far, has given the appearance of only trying to increase it's membership through all this. I do have some hope they will get it right though. They did send out memo to all members asking them not to register until February 19 (the last day you can register a previously owned UAS & still be legal) to give them time to investigate possibilities of a law suit. We will see how that law suit is worded...

5. As it stands currently, there is NO requirement for the manufacturer to put anything in the box, or for the retailer to say anything about registration. Unless that changes, 6 months from now when little john gets a new DJI for his birthday he still won't know what the rules are & either him or his parents (if under 14) can face a $27,500 fine &/or 3 years in jail for just flying his birthday present in his back yard 10' off the ground.

So, explain to me again how this registration is a good thing...

I can see you don't know much about full-scale aircraft. Bird strikes have broken windshields. I was in a A36 once when it happened. I know pilot who had a goose go through the windshield and into the back of his Mooney.

Most quads I have seen are way over 1 pound. Do the math on the energy on four out-runners and what they would do at 180 knots.

Why are you so worried that the government is after you. Have you ever seen what goes into a NTSB report? It is not a which hunt at all.

The sky is not falling. I have been around many FAA people and not one of them is the gestapo, sure, some are jerks, but most are good guys.

If we don't look at what we can do with the FAA, and just ignore them, then you may get the world you are worried about, nothing allowed in the air.

Freedom with out control is Chaos.....

Rock ON!!!!
DAG

I know pilot who had a goose go through the windshield and into the back of his Mooney.

Most quads I have seen are way over 1 pound.
DAG

Apples and oranges. A 30-lb goose doesn't compare to a 2-5-lb RC toy.

Originally Posted by bmw111

Apples and oranges. A 30-lb goose doesn't compare to a 2-5-lb RC toy.

30lb goose?!?!

Someone's going to have a good Xmas dinner.

Originally Posted by bmw111

Apples and oranges. A 30-lb goose doesn't compare to a 2-5-lb RC toy.

All I am saying is do the math. Four 1 pound out-runners will do a bit of damage moving at 180Knots at impact.

The quads out there are not all small.

And it is not apples and oranges to the news. A cracked windshield will be like a downed 747 on FOX news.

Just saying there is not going to be a problem does not make it go away.

DAG

Just imagine a out-runner going into a engine. Sure, birds are already excepted, but the news would own us all.

DAG

The epa needs to save the birds

Originally Posted by dag214

All I am saying is do the math. Four 1 pound out-runners will do a bit of damage moving at 180Knots at impact.

The quads out there are not all small.

And it is not apples and oranges to the news. A cracked windshield will be like a downed 747 on FOX news.

Just saying there is not going to be a problem does not make it go away.

DAG

Yes, there are multirotors that weigh much over 10, 20, and even 50lbs, but the chances of one being flown in the wrong place is the equivalent of a formula 1 car having an accident on a public road.

In other words, (IF) the time comes when a drone hits a plane, I guarantee you that it will be a phantom which weighs something like two pounds.