You are right Windependence. I have the baby soarer scaled up plans in front of me but with all these problems i will scrape it and delete the file

Note that UK coyright laws are different.

And irrespective of whether the thing is in copyright or not, if its not actually being SOLD by someone with the rights, there is essentially no commercial damage and no case to answer.

Also, its up to the copyright owner to ask the material be removed, at least.

Finally, its 99.99% certain that the cases are not worth taking to court.

$50,000 costs awarded equally, and $25 damages to pay? Hardly a commercial proposition.

Originally Posted by vintage1

Finally, its 99.99% certain that the cases are not worth taking to court.

...and the 'plaintiff' will also have to proof his/hers TRUE ownership......another minor complication...

Here is a reworked Funster file. I OCR"d the text so that it is easier to read for old eyes like mine and I played with the drawing a little. It would be nice if someone posted the rest of the text so that I could it could be added. Thank you Tri Pacer for original post for this is a cute little free-flight.
Gene

Vought SBU-1 Corsair

Originally Posted by rchopper56

Here is a reworked Funster file. I OCR"d the text so that it is easier to read for old eyes like mine and I played with the drawing a little. It would be nice if someone posted the rest of the text so that I could it could be added. Thank you Tri Pacer for original post for this is a cute little free-flight.
Gene

Thanks Gene; I was kind-a hoping you'd play with this drawing if I put it out there. You did such a nice job on the Biwinger!

Chuck

Originally Posted by vintage1

Note that UK coyright laws are different.

And irrespective of whether the thing is in copyright or not, if its not actually being SOLD by someone with the rights, there is essentially no commercial damage and no case to answer.

Also, its up to the copyright owner to ask the material be removed, at least.

Finally, its 99.99% certain that the cases are not worth taking to court.

$50,000 costs awarded equally, and $25 damages to pay? Hardly a commercial proposition.

You are right Vintage. The worst I expect is a request for the plan to be removed. Lawyers are expensive and there just isn't enough money in the plan business to bring anything like this to court. And the other side of that is how in the world can anyone track down the ownership of most of these plans. The best we can do is use out best judgment and hope we don't step on anyone's toes. Nobody here is making any money off of these old plans and that makes a big difference in how it is viewed legally. The whole thing is a somewhat muddy mess and all we can do is make an effort to avoid anything of those living or existing businesses.

Planeman

I was rightly called to task about a couple of Cleveland plans I posted and i have removed them. I don't know what to make of Cleveland. The designs are just about all 60 to 70 years old and the company quit making kits way back around the late 1950's. The plans are being sold by someone. I keep wondering what the situation is with the copyrights. These plans are very old designs and it seems to me the copyrights should be at end by now. Cleveland is an unusual case.

Planeman

Here's a few more plans and my feable attempts to rescale them. The Hogan was a plan that had two different scales on it, so I had to seperate the formers & ribs and rescale them, hence the two PDFs. Unfortunately, I didn't know how to combine the two in the drawing. Perhape Rufus or Gene could help? Still, you should be able to build from these.

Chuck

By the way, does anyone have anymore info on the Hamerhead?

so what would be the rule on older MAN plans? They only sell about 800 set of plans or drawings now, and surely over the years what they have published, the number must be in the thousands. But I have read in here and other sites that they trashed many of them, which if true is unfortunate as there must be many nice designs otherwise lost.
Common sense would tell me if they have destroyed the masters or any other copy in their archives, its fair game.

and is there a listing of the plans they offered over the years (other than their website, which is incomplete)?

Once again its a guess. I quit reading Model Airplane News a long time ago when it turned into mostly an RC oriented magazine with nothing but reviews of kits, engines, and ARF's. My modeling interests are more toward scratch building of scale and some non-scale rubber powered models and lately putting electric motors and micro RC in them. I don't know what their recent orientation is or what the present list of plans is. My judgment is to stick to the idea of posting plans prior to 1970 as discussed and include the Model Airplane News plans of that era. If MAN has a problem I guess they will let us know here. I would appreciate it if they would post a polite note here rather than make a big fuss about it. We ARE trying to do our best to be fair and thoughtful about what is posted. Any other suggestions from some of you out there?

Planeman

Originally Posted by jonquinn

so what would be the rule on older MAN plans? They only sell about 800 set of plans or drawings now, and surely over the years what they have published, the number must be in the thousands. But I have read in here and other sites that they trashed many of them, which if true is unfortunate as there must be many nice designs otherwise lost.
Common sense would tell me if they have destroyed the masters or any other copy in their archives, its fair game.

and is there a listing of the plans they offered over the years (other than their website, which is incomplete)?

If MAN went to the trouble and exprense to renew the copyright on the 28 year anniversary of each plan then they would still be protected.

If it was too much trouble, and expense, most plans did not sell for much more than the cost of the paper, they are now in the public domain.

I think the old magazines, older than early 60's, are OK. I haven't heard of anyone that has been pursued by them.

I have quite a few plans from before the mid 60's so I should still be able to post away. Plus most of my plans are from companies that went defunct a long time ago.

Originally Posted by planeman

I was rightly called to task about a couple of Cleveland plans I posted and i have removed them. I don't know what to make of Cleveland. The designs are just about all 60 to 70 years old and the company quit making kits way back around the late 1950's. The plans are being sold by someone. I keep wondering what the situation is with the copyrights. These plans are very old designs and it seems to me the copyrights should be at end by now. Cleveland is an unusual case.

Planeman

Planeman, you've probably seen this already, but for those that haven't it's from the Cleveland plans site. Ed Packard was the founder of Cleveland kits:

"After working in the upholstery, covering and doping departments of the Glen L. Martin Company in Cleveland, and in Tony Fokker’s Atlantic Aviation in Hasbrouck Heights, New Jersey, Mr. Packard was financially able to enter into the full-time production of model aircraft kits. In July 1927, only two months after Charles Lindbergh’s epic New-York-to-Paris flight ignited the aviation passions of American youth, Halle Brothers Department Stores of Cleveland “jump Started” the company’s business by ordering 360, Cleveland rise-off-ground (ROG), “Wasp”, 14-inch span models.
[many years pass...decades]
The success of the early years was never repeated and, in 1968, the company moved from its Lorain Avenue headquarters to Detroit Avenue, ceased making kits, and began an ambitious "Golden Era" plans operation with the aid of a group of dedicated "volunteers".
In 1996 a new chapter of the Cleveland Model & Supply Company history began when Mr. Packard retired and sold the company to Mr. John Jacox, of Indianapolis, Indiana. Mr. Jacox is a life-long model aircraft builder and has been a passionate collector of Cleveland Model & Supply Company kits and memorabilia for more than 10 years. Mr. Jacox is an Aerospace Engineer and has spent his entire career in the defense, aircraft turbine engine industry. Mr. Jacox is a member of the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA), the Society of Antique Modelers (SAM), the Model Engine Collectors Association (MECA), and the International Miniature Aircraft Association (IMAA).

Cleveland Model & Supply Company is healthy and is prospering. The company’s vision of the future includes its 100th anniversary."

Everything depends on how one interprets 'Mr. Packard retired and sold the company'. Exactly what did he sell? Was it just the original proofs of the plans with a stock of cardboard tubes for mailing purposes, or did the deal include a legal transference of copyright for all the old plans? What I find odd is that Aerodyne has been selling Cleveland plans for at least 7-8 years alongside other classic rubber scale plans from defunct companies. Maybe they have a licence agreement to do that http://www.freeflightmodels.com/- but it isn't made clear.

Anyway, apparently Peerless were sued out of existence by Mr Packard for copying the general layout of Cleveland plans and the use of techniques such as in-filling between stringers with balsa sheet (which he claimed, ludicrously, was his intellectual property). As far as I know, no-one claims copyright on Peerless plans now, some of which are very similar to Cleveland designs (or superior), so please don't feel inhibited about linking to those

Originally Posted by tri-pacer

Here's a few more plans and my feable attempts to rescale them. The Hogan was a plan that had two different scales on it, so I had to seperate the formers & ribs and rescale them, hence the two PDFs. Unfortunately, I didn't know how to combine the two in the drawing. Perhape Rufus or Gene could help? Still, you should be able to build from these.

Chuck

Is this what your looking for?
Gene

Of course it was. You know, I've got lots of these scans that I did, with the intention of doing what you did to this one or putting them in AutoCAD, but alass, I haven't the time, or should I say, I haven't made the time yet! Thank you Gene.