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Apr 10, 2009, 03:24 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by tender
Hallo Robert, DingoII haven´t altitude limiter...
Exactly, thanks Palo.
Jan
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Apr 10, 2009, 06:05 AM
I don't want to "Switch Now"
pmackenzie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tender
Hallo Pat,
ALTI2 from Lomcovak isn´t the same as RC-ALTI2 from RC-electronics...Only this RC-ALTI2-basic and RC-ALTI2-pro have FXJ functions (FXJ altitude switch and FXJ time switch). Differences between ALTI from Lomcovak and ALTI from RC-electronics you can see here:
http://www.rivamodels.sk/FXJthread/FXJ_04.html
For details about RC-ALTI with FXJ function you can see these links:
http://www.rivamodels.sk/PPP/TechNews/tech05en.html
http://www.rivamodels.sk/PPP/TechNews/tech07ensk.html
http://www.rivamodels.sk/PPP/TechNews/tech09ensk.html

Palo

P.S.: don´t hesitate contact me by private message if you will have some questions.
Thanks.

Who had the bright idea to use the name of an existing product for a new very similar one

The difference in price between a logger and a non-logger would only be a couple of dollars for the serial RAM and a 3 pin header. Everything else would be identical.
Apr 10, 2009, 06:31 AM
tender
tender's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmackenzie
Who had the bright idea to use the name of an existing product for a new very similar one
Hallo Pat,
I´m only "test pilot" and author of the name for this category - FXJ.
But I just sent your question to my friend Andrej (he is producer of RC-ALTI2).

Andrej tell me that right name for this device with FXJ switch is:
RC-Altimeter#2-basic or RC-Altimeter#2-pro.

Palo
Last edited by tender; Apr 10, 2009 at 07:02 AM.
Apr 10, 2009, 08:17 AM
You looking at me?
Ed Franz's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmackenzie
Thanks.

Who had the bright idea to use the name of an existing product for a new very similar one

The difference in price between a logger and a non-logger would only be a couple of dollars for the serial RAM and a 3 pin header. Everything else would be identical.

I don't think it is as simple as that. I think the price difference would be substantial. Bob was talking in the price range of $35, don't most loggers sell for about $100?

Ed
www.commonsenserc.com
Apr 10, 2009, 01:50 PM
Registered User
When we discussed our new „thermal sailplane“ rules over here in CZ one of the strongest points raised agaist the altitude limiters was a difficulty in checking and verifying their accuracy. I do not mean any variantions in components parametres or in air properties, I mean a situation when there is, say, 200 m dialed in at the device but it would switch the motor off at 100 or 300 metres (exaggerated) which could be both intentional and the device failure.

I am not at all against the concept, just want to say that there should be also something for checking them. Rules, usually, define that it should (or shall) be possible to check the model's compliance to their clauses. The only solution we could have come up with was a pressure/vacuum chamber which is obviously out the reality. Just for a discussion...

Jan
Apr 10, 2009, 03:19 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by DingoII
When we discussed our new „thermal sailplane“ rules over here in CZ one of the strongest points raised agaist the altitude limiters was a difficulty in checking and verifying their accuracy. I do not mean any variantions in components parametres or in air properties, I mean a situation when there is, say, 200 m dialed in at the device but it would switch the motor off at 100 or 300 metres (exaggerated) which could be both intentional and the device failure.

I am not at all against the concept, just want to say that there should be also something for checking them. Rules, usually, define that it should (or shall) be possible to check the model's compliance to their clauses. The only solution we could have come up with was a pressure/vacuum chamber which is obviously out the reality. Just for a discussion...

Jan
We have been running Height Limited eSoaring contests and trials in the UK for about 9 months and currently have about 130 pilots using the RC Electronics Altimeter #2 Basic (and Pro), with altimeter switch and motor run time switch. Our rules have been developed over this period to the stage where they work very well and have been adopted by our national body (the BMFA) for ALL BMFA eSoaring competitions in 2009 - (including the British Nationals).

The rules have also been largely adopted by many UK clubs, some Australian clubs and are essentially very similar to the rules used in Eastern Europe. Input has also been received from more than one acknowledged expert in the US. I have attached a copy of the rules with latest revisions for anyone interested.

The altimeter switches have proven to be very reliable and the anti-zoom algorithm, in conjunction with our rule set, means that it is very difficult to gain any launch height advantage using this system. Checking units is quick and easy on the flying field with a laptop and for major contests we also use a simple chamber incorporating a vacuum pump / a servo tester and a differential manometer. (See attched picture). We can test up to 20 units at a time in less than 5 minutes. In most of the contests and trials we have run to date, we have downloaded EVERY competitors log and although there have been the odd issues, all have been quickly resolved.

If you are looking for a PURE THERMAL SOARING competition, where motor power or drive-line efficiency does not come into the equation, then Height Limited competitions are the way to go. I personally spent over £3,000 on motors, gearboxes, and 23 x 12 props in the last 2 years trying to maximise drive line efficiency in the 200W/Kg competitions we used to run - and so the cost of a limiting switch at £67.00 in the UK is negligible.

I can of course understand the argument for motor power / efficiency related contests, but then I also fly F5B to satisfy my high adrenaline requirements!

The eSoaring HL format is attracting interest in the UK from many new pilots PLUS several very well known pure glider pilots and there are also regular articles in 2 of our more forward looking magazines - Radio Control Model World and Quiet & Electric Flight International.

It may be of interest to know that we have also run successful contests which have included winch launched gliders (150m winch lines), flying in the same slots as the 200m height limited electric gliders. An ideal format for future club competitions maybe ??

The UK web site dedicated to this subject is [URL=http://www.eSoaring.net[/URL]

We will be closely monitoring all of our 17 league contests this year with the intention of gaining FAI status within the next 2 - 3 years.

Martin Bell - PRO - UK eSoaring.
Apr 10, 2009, 03:37 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell

It may be of interest to know that we have also run successful contests which have included winch launched gliders (150m winch lines), flying in the same slots as the 200m height limited electric gliders. An ideal format for future club competitions maybe ??

.
I can see where it wouldn't matter whether the plane was e-power or winch launched.....
The e-sailplane might have a slight advantage due to the possibility of a bad winch launch, or a slight disadvantage due to a well timed zoom.
Either way, it's a wash.

Sounds like fun.
Apr 10, 2009, 03:44 PM
I don't want to "Switch Now"
pmackenzie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell

The altimeter switches have proven to be very reliable and the anti-zoom algorithm, in conjunction with our rule set, means that it is very difficult to gain any launch height advantage using this system.
.
What does the anti-zoom algorithm do?
Taper off power if you approach the set height too quickly?

Pat MacKenzie
Apr 10, 2009, 04:06 PM
Registered User
Neil Stainton's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmackenzie
What does the anti-zoom algorithm do?
Taper off power if you approach the set height too quickly?
No, it hard cuts the power early, depending upon the model's rate of climb.

The graph shows the motor being cut at 190.9m and the model zooming/climbing to a max altitude of 199.7m before stalling and recovering a few times. The cut off was set at 200m, so the algorithm is pretty good!

Neil.
Apr 11, 2009, 12:57 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
... we also use a simple chamber incorporating a vacuum pump / a servo tester and a differential manometer. (See attched picture).
Martin, thanks for info, I know your pages but missed the chamber. Also, what is the cost and availability of this test jig?
Cheers,
Jan
Apr 11, 2009, 08:00 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by DingoII
Martin, thanks for info, I know your pages but missed the chamber. Also, what is the cost and availability of this test jig?
Cheers,
Jan
Hi Jan

All my own work - but very easy to put together. Many of the components were purchased on eBay.

1) Differential Manometer (0 to 130 mbar)
2) Pressure/Vacuum chamber
3) 12V Vacuum pump (must be capable of pumping air of course)
4) Old brushed motor ESC from a 20 year old electric glider!
5) Servo tester
6) Worn out 3S lipo from an old model.
7) Various connectors and cables from my model workshop.

Total cost was about £150.00 I guess, plus a good few hours thinking time.

Basically, the servo tester is used to control the 12V vacuum pump via the ESC and thus the rate at which the pressure is reduced in the chamber. It can be run to provide anything from zero m/s climb rate to about 200 m/s climb rate. An altimeter switch is wired in series between the ESC and the Servo tester output, which then stops the vacuum pump when it (the alti switch), operates at it's set altitude / time. At the same time I can put about 20 more switches in the chamber for testing and comparison.

With the use of extension leads, I can also test switches with any model installation, without the model actually leaving the ground.

(As an extra bonus, I can now do all my postal flights, (where I have to submit flight logs), in the comfort of my own home, when everyone else is struggling in the British wind and rain ) !!! (I am joking!)

I'm happy to provide more info if anyone interested, but it may be a week or so before I can take more pictures as I am CD'ing our first major league event next weekend and have a load of prep work still to do.

Happy thermal soaring.
Martin
Last edited by Martin Bell; Apr 11, 2009 at 08:07 AM.
Apr 11, 2009, 08:17 AM
AZ Outback
Robert Burson's Avatar
Quote:
(As an extra bonus, I can now do all my postal flights, (where I have to submit flight logs), in the comfort of my own home, when everyone else is struggling in the British wind and rain ) !!! (I am joking!)
Postals will never be the same, could not stop laughing ;-)

The Best

Robert
Apr 11, 2009, 09:37 AM
Registered User
Ralph Weaver's Avatar
The extra cost of the logger is not just the parts. You then have to have either serial or USB communications and software on the other end. You might think the software doesn't actually cost anything but it takes a lot of hours to write and even more to support.

I think it would make the most sense to use existing products, but how do you know if the limiter is set to 200m? You'd have to connect each one to a computer and read it - big pain for a large meet. A fixed height limiter would be cheaper easier to manage. I just saw that the LSF is allowing electric launch limited to 600'. Anyone making a fixed limiter might want to consider making that the limit.
Apr 11, 2009, 09:42 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bell
Hi Jan

All my own work - but very easy to put together. Many of the components were purchased on eBay.

1) Differential Manometer (0 to 130 mbar)
2) Pressure/Vacuum chamber
3) 12V Vacuum pump (must be capable of pumping air of course)
4) Old brushed motor ESC from a 20 year old electric glider!
5) Servo tester
6) Worn out 3S lipo from an old model.
7) Various connectors and cables from my model workshop.

Total cost was about £150.00 I guess, plus a good few hours thinking time.
Hello Martin,

Thanks for the explanation, for me it is really interesting, also it sounds easy though it probably wasn't :-)

Anyway, I think that something like this should be available commercially, together with the switches. Perhaps from the switch manufacturers...

Good luck with your event!

Regards,
Jan
Apr 11, 2009, 09:44 AM
Just plain ridiculous. Sir.
rdwoebke's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Weaver
I just saw that the LSF is allowing electric launch limited to 600'.
It should be noted that at this time the LSF officers are proposing a program to include electric launch limited to 600 feet in the SAP. Currently it is just a proposal that is still open for comments. For an actual change to the SAP to happen (based on the bylaws of the association) will require some signifigant voting.

Ryan


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