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Dec 17, 2008, 10:48 AM
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EQMOD's Avatar
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The MAGNETIC SWASHPLATE 4-Coil "Push-Pull" Concept Experiment


Ok, the idea here is to "understand" the physics behind a magnetic swashplate configuration. No intentions yet to apply this on an actual RC heli but hopefully i can do this on smaller RC helicopter such as the PiccoZ.


To start, i decided to use the spare parts of a 4#3 as an experimentation platform;



The idea is to use two sets of coils servicing both sides of the swash, the magnets are arranged in such a way that one side is being pulled towards the coil and the other side is being pushed away from the coil;




Two coils for each channel so that a total of four electromagnetic coils;




It is possible to use the servo controller boards as coil drivers. With this you can actually reverse the current for the "push-pull" mechanism;









View of the magnets as attached below the 4#3 swash;






The idea is to use small and strong magnets instead of the big ones to make the rotor head much lighter.

Actual weight of the magnetic swash;



and to show how strong this magnet is;


t
Last edited by EQMOD; Dec 17, 2008 at 04:08 PM.
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Dec 17, 2008, 11:03 AM
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Ah, you beat me too it. I was thinking of trying to mod a havoc with cyclic...

One thing to think about is that magnetic force lines ultimately want to complete a "circuit" - if you give them an iron path to the other pole, then the "circuit" has a lot lower "resistance" than if you make them loop the long way around through air, plastic, etc. To whatever extent you can work the design to keep the air gaps small and the magnetic paths through easily closed loops, you should get more force for the strength of the magnets you are lifting.
Dec 17, 2008, 12:10 PM
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Paterned by Mr. Scala


Hello!

Very nice thread actually the system is french and as been invented by a french engeneer (Mr Scala). he built a 15g heli Fixed pitch.

the photos aren't available anymore as he paterned it few years back

let me have a look to find you the link

Dark
Last edited by darkrider; Dec 17, 2008 at 12:27 PM.
Dec 17, 2008, 12:25 PM
Registered User
here it is!
http://www.microplanesolution.com/mps_000013.htm

that actually the latest heli, less than 15grs
they sell as well the parts used to construct the concept

enjoy!

Dark
Dec 17, 2008, 12:42 PM
Registered User
looks good but I think if you connect the magnet pairs to make a horseshoe you'll get more flux.
there is a whole bunch of people doing similar things to piccoz
Dec 17, 2008, 03:56 PM
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EQMOD's Avatar
Thanks guys for the info. This will make the experiment more interesting and fun. I forgot to add the last slide for the "push-pull" concept (will add this on the head thread);




The idea here is to have two coils on the opposite sides with reversed coil windings such that one side will pull down the swash and the other side will push it up. This way there will be an even force acting on both side of the swash which will make the cyclic transitions smooth. We will use two pairs of coils for both aileron and elevator axis.
Last edited by EQMOD; Dec 17, 2008 at 04:15 PM.
Dec 17, 2008, 04:01 PM
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EQMOD's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by beer-man
looks good but I think if you connect the magnet pairs to make a horseshoe you'll get more flux.
there is a whole bunch of people doing similar things to piccoz
I was thinking of that too but the there is the shaft passing at the middle. I am still thinking what 'house' part will be a good way to connect the two opposite coils at the bottom part.
Dec 17, 2008, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrider
Hello!

Very nice thread actually the system is french and as been invented by a french engeneer (Mr Scala). he built a 15g heli Fixed pitch.

the photos aren't available anymore as he paterned it few years back

let me have a look to find you the link

Dark
This needs to get written down somewhere... I wasn't aware the French had invented anything..... since the early 1900's.

gj tho EQMOD... Keep it up!
Dec 17, 2008, 04:13 PM
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EQMOD's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrider
Hello!

Very nice thread actually the system is french and as been invented by a french engeneer (Mr Scala). he built a 15g heli Fixed pitch.

the photos aren't available anymore as he paterned it few years back

let me have a look to find you the link

Dark
Was it using the same 'push-pull' approach or is it a single coil magnetic swash ?
Dec 17, 2008, 04:44 PM
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Air Vaca's Avatar
With the b/h head you won't need a lot of movement from the arrangement for it to work. I was thinking about a bar magnet with coils around it as a basis for a reciprocating electric "motor" for an ornithopter. similar concept
regards,
Bill
Last edited by Air Vaca; Dec 17, 2008 at 04:53 PM.
Dec 17, 2008, 11:31 PM
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MarioIArguello's Avatar

The Magnetic Swashplate concept.... memories


I did many variations of the magnetic swashplate and rotor heads before the French or anyone that I new at the time was doing any work with such. Mr Scala did show a small helicopter controlled but it was after many of my PAlm Size helicopter thread that were brewing the concept with most of the work was done and tested on the little helicopter designs I was showing and talking about in the early RCG MIA Plam Size threads from around 2000 on.

Here is just a sample of my early work with such and helis that involved some of the ideas that are being resurected in this thread. Nothing new really and now that we have really really tiny mechnical swashplate, such as those on the Blade MCX and Walkera 4#3s, the magnetic actouators is sort of a thing of the past. Magnetic actuators are still attractive in some applications but for precise cyclic control via a true servo , hard to beat the real swashplates.

I also did a similar magnetic controller but used with Muscle wires and the result is on this video. The difficulty in manufacturing these muscle wire actuators made them impractical at the time I did them.

WORLD'S SMALLEST FIRST 4CH RC Helicopter !!! Before 4#3 mSR Solo (1 min 34 sec)
Last edited by MarioIArguello; Dec 17, 2008 at 11:40 PM.
Dec 17, 2008, 11:47 PM
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EQMOD's Avatar
Thanks Mario. Maybe if you could post some of the build details here, i could skip the experimentation part and directly proceed to putting one on a small heli. The coil i initially made had only a few turns which makes the electromagnetic strength very weak.

regards,

Mon
Dec 18, 2008, 12:30 AM
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MarioIArguello's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EQMOD
Thanks Mario. Maybe if you could post some of the build details here, i could skip the experimentation part and directly proceed to putting one on a small heli. The coil i initially made had only a few turns which makes the electromagnetic strength very weak.

regards,

Mon
you need very high turns thin wire, to make the magnetic field strong, use high quality neodymeums, if you are not already doing so. You will need to experiment with the winds and magnet size due to the type of components you are trying to move. The smoother and lighter the flybar the less power you need to and thus the coils need not be big or really strong. The other thing to consider is the overall weight of the helicopter. Keep in mind that controlling a flybar not only deals with the mecahnics of the links to it and the force required by the swashplate to move it but the weight and gravitational forces that act on such and thus this too has an effect on the design of the controlling device, the swashplate and the strenght requirements of the components to drive it.

Magnetic actuators are ideal for super light model helicopters... like the ones in this thread also, I think I placed some instruction on how to make a magnetic actuator there. If not look at the Indoor forums under magnetic actuator coils. I had the ones in the following photo done for me for a special MIA PAlm-SIze (TM) helicopter appplication, but I cannot give out the specs on them. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ght+helicopter
Dec 18, 2008, 02:00 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyKillmore
This needs to get written down somewhere... I wasn't aware the French had invented anything..... since the early 1900's.
That stinks a bit man... sounds like you don't have any respect for french people... or you think we are all stupid! alot of french paterns wheren't exported to US because of a simple fact that wasn't made in USA...

Sorry all members for the small "out of topic"...

@EQMOD
yes it was a push pull just like yours using as he says "4 floating magnets"
I had the chance to see the plan and the pictures before it was copyrighted and suppressed from any web pages. but actually you did the same on your mod. as far as i remember it does really look alike.

@Mario
I feel in your tone you are upset. Very nice little heli you did indeed. you got skills that is for sure. but please, you are not the only one! and if i may, the one built by Mr Scala, called the Helium, is less than 15g and 4ch too...
I believe that as soon as released (even you say it wasn't the first one), his heli was eventually the smallest/lightest of the world.

Video here >>> http://www.microplanesolution.com/volhelium2.MOV

not sure how you can possibly reduce the weight more than he did ...

Dark
Last edited by darkrider; Dec 18, 2008 at 02:11 PM.


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