SEMFF--South East Michigan Foamy Flyers - Page 507 - RC Groups
View Poll Results: Which type of combat do you prefer?
One design (same plane shape/size) with common and battery) 1 4.35%
Similiar planes (Kens single motor combat planes) and common motor and battery. 14 60.87%
No limits except battery size (900 mAh 2S) 3 13.04%
Anything that limits 5 21.74%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Oct 17, 2012, 10:49 AM
It's Good to be Retired!
Jordonr's Avatar
Yes I did mean HAIL!
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Oct 17, 2012, 11:47 AM
Joe The Ripper
It was good that you straightened me out with your correct name last night after my confusing you with someone else. I hate it when someone doesn't correct me and my mind gets imprinted with the wrong name.
With regard to flying other times at Stoney. I fly out there at least three times a week whenever the weather permits. Since I work it's usually in the later afternoon or evening. Lately I have been doing more night flying. On weekends I always get out at least one afternoon - usually after 1:00pm. However, any day the weather is decent you can find members of our unclub out there. They all don't do combat on Tuesdays, but they are all just as great to fly with. I agree with you in that it's always more fun to fly with someone else than it is alone.
Oct 17, 2012, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by LCountach
...Could someone give me an idea of what it would cost for servos for a stingray from your group's seller. Thanks in advance.

Looking forward to next week.
Sorry I missed talking to you last night. I was the tall guy with little hair and the shirt with a big arm on the front (later covered with a dark green jacket).

I have several servos that are good in the sting ray. Unfortunately two of them are currently out of stock. But, I do have the 15178 servos which I, Ken, and others have in at least some of our Sting Rays. They are $3 each. If you are near Troy you can stop by and pick some up. I'll PM you my phone so you can be sure I'm home before making a trip. I should also have the HXT-900 servos back in stock by next Tues. if you want to meet me at Stony.
Oct 17, 2012, 06:08 PM
Registered User
Mike, Congrats on the king of combat!

Also for your help with my CNC machine. You might asked how you helped. Well in talking with you yesterday after combat about anti-backlash nut designs. It got me thinking about my issue with minor backlash yet after upgrade. The consistent backlash value just not adding up. Light bulb!! Oh ya, I can compensate for it in the cnc prg. Went to alter settings to find I forgot to change them to zero when I upgraded. Yup you guessed it! To my surprise the exact figure was my mythical value of backlash still present. At-least i know the pgm. works to compensate the value entered . LOL

Oct 17, 2012, 06:17 PM

SkyMasters Combat Demo and night flying

Don't forget we are all invited to Fly some combat demonstrations for the guys at ShyMasters Scripps road field this Saturday. I sugges we plan to arrive before 5:00 so we can be all set to go by 5:15 or 5:30 PM. Also we are invited to stay and do some night flying after the combat demos.

Last night I think I heard Jordon, Ted, Joe, and Vic saying they planned to attend. I'll be there also. any others?

Observers are also welcome but pilots must show AMA membership to be able to fly. If you want to join on line you can get a printout that will allow you to fly. Park flyer members can fly any "Park flyer" planes. That would cover most anything we fly, unless Vic has his FPV plane ready. That would require an full open AMA membership.

So, who plans to participate? Did I get the 4 guys mentioned above correct?
Oct 17, 2012, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Jordonr
Introducing the new “King of Combat” with 5 cuts for the evening - Mike Spring!!!

All hail the King!
Great Photo Jordon!

Mike were you King last week? Seems like it was not long ago.
Oct 17, 2012, 07:31 PM
John (Tiger Jet)
Wow Don, $3 each sounds great! My local Hobby Shop wants $12 to $15 each.

I took my Tiger out for some more testing today. The foam trimming did make a slight difference in thrust. Unfortunately any gain I made in performance to the 5x5 APC was also added to that unknown Black 5x5 Prop. The smaller APCs just don't seem to work for me. I decided to go the Hack & Slash route and stuffed in a 6x4 APC. That did the trick for thrust and speed. Unfortunately I still have the extreme climbing under power problem. I did angle the motor down as someone suggested but unfortunately that didn't fix it. My next test it to fiddle with the Ailerons. They are in the tail on my plane and may be causing nose up if not positioned exactly flat. I am going to try a slight down angle to see if they have also been acting as elevators.

Weather Channel said its going to Rain tomorrow. Bummer
Oct 17, 2012, 09:42 PM
springer's Avatar
thankyuh, thankyuh vurry much! Easy to do since my kingship will likely only extend to next tue!

Jim: Glad to help by listening! Seems when i was working at GM as TIE, I spent a lot of time listening to guys talk about their problems and when they solved them in the course of the conversation, they also thanked me for such a great job. (they also serve who sit and listen?)

John: yeah, weather not going to be nice til sat, I think. On your plane, how does it glide? If you take it up high, cut power and let controls go to neutral, what happens? Are the ailerons just that or elevons? Wish I'd looked more closely at the plane...
Oct 17, 2012, 09:50 PM
To keep the crown till tuesday you have to win on Sat. at SkyMasters.

Come on... when did you begin this reign? Just Tues? or a week or two ago?

Com'on got give it up sometime.

Go'na be there Sat.?
Oct 17, 2012, 10:32 PM
springer's Avatar
Actually, I think I didn't get it last week, think it was the week before, although I suppose I could browse back through the thread.... I'll try to be at the flyin sat. so you can take the crown from me!
Oct 17, 2012, 11:09 PM
John (Tiger Jet)
Originally Posted by springer
John: yeah, weather not going to be nice til sat, I think. On your plane, how does it glide? If you take it up high, cut power and let controls go to neutral, what happens? Are the ailerons just that or elevons? Wish I'd looked more closely at the plane...
I don't think I have ever "let controls go to neutral" Too scared for that! At Metro if I ever did that it would probably blow away. High up its very windy there and I must fight to stay in control. Closest I have done to neutral is glide with 10% power for landings. That takes a little up elevator to land but its almost effortless. I may be actually going to 0 elevator when pulling up with that extreme trim I have set. The plane comes in VERY slow and gently lands. If I had to guess, I would say 0% throttle and letting go would cause a slow starting dive. It might then start pulling up as it gains speed until it stalled nose up and start diving again. Then again it might just corkscrew into the ground like a giant foam carrot. At 50% it is easy to fly if there is no wind. The weight is below the main wing so it rights itself somewhat from roles and if not going to fast it easily flies level. The ailerons are just that. They run off a single servo and don't function as elevons.
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If you look at the side shot, you can see the extreme down trim on the canards needed to fly level at 100%. That makes the plane a bit twitchy or indecisive. It doesn't seem to know weather to go up or down when heading into the wind. With tail wind though, that down trim seems stable enough. That might be true for most planes though. I haven't flown many R/C planes. Just videogames and simulators that don't simulate windy conditions.

Edit: I just remembered this clip of a F-15 with canards.
F-15 Active de la NASA (3 min 35 sec)

If you watch the canards closely you will see that they are often in extreme downward angels in level flight and even when climbing. Obviously that F-15 is vastly different than my Tiger but it does make me ask why? I guess don't understand the aerodynamics of it.

Edit 2: I have been watching many videos of the Rafale and Saab Gripen. Very similar shapes to my tiger. Surprisingly they too have the canards angled down in level flight and even climbing. It must have something to do with directing airflow over the main wing and not just acting like elevators.
Last edited by LCountach; Oct 17, 2012 at 11:56 PM.
Oct 18, 2012, 12:05 AM
springer's Avatar
Interesting. My OneSheetCanard flew wierd until I lowered the canard's TE, effectively putting it in an up trim mode. By the way, the paint job is super!

so at power off and level flight, she may want to slightly dive then gain speed and go nose up?
Oct 18, 2012, 01:20 AM
John (Tiger Jet)
Originally Posted by springer
so at power off and level flight, she may want to slightly dive then gain speed and go nose up?
That would be my guess. I don't know if it would actually pull out. It's likely it would if the canards were level and it was high enough. Speed really makes this thing want to climb. Almost unflyable with level trim at top speed. With the trim I have now my guess it would glide until it lost momentum and then drop like a stone.
Oct 18, 2012, 07:59 AM
Ken's CAD Models
dz1sfb's Avatar
If I have understood some things correctly (let me restate);
1. Your Tiger jet (cool looker btw) is a pure canard and not an elevon plane.
2.You mentioned pitch sensitivity (indecisiveness).

Based on the information provide, giving my understanding is correct, I would say that you CG is too far aft. The CG on a canard is further forward than an elevon plane.

Control setup on a canard plane should be no reflex in the ailerons and slight positive incidence in the canards. Your negative incidence is likely needed due to tailheaviness.

The comparison to the full scale jets is not related to what you are experiencing. When these heavy jets are flying slow (for photography usually) they all fly with the nose pitched up. The canards are set to fly in a feathered position for maximum efficiency. In all the examples given, non of them are true canards or flown in such a manner. The canards are there for augmented pitch and sometimes roll control, especially in high G or high alpha flight conditions. Very noticeable during takeoff when they would otherwise be a source of drag. The NASA F-15 has some unique properties as these canards also have dihedral and the root edge has an outward sweep. This further gives the illusion of being pitched downward.

Finding the correct CG will be a bit tricky, due to the canards being so close to the wing. My suggestion would be to incremently move it forward taking incremental amounts of negative incidence out as you progress. Once you find the sweet spot for your CG you'll get very stable full throttle controlability and a good glide. You might find it wanting some positive incidence at glide speeds. One of the benefits of a canard is that they are supposed to be stall proof. Yours should be no exception once its correct.

Best wishes,
Latest blog entry: Ken's CAD Models new web site
Oct 18, 2012, 10:47 AM
John (Tiger Jet)
Thanks for the advice Ken. Looks like I have to start adding weight to the nose. It was what I also suspected and wanted to avoid. Bummer. Also thanks for the explanation of what the real jets are doing in the videos.

Too bad its supposed to rain today. I would love to test again.

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