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Dec 11, 2009, 12:02 AM
Lee
Lee
PERFECT LANDING !!!
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I am used to the roll without the T-tail and had to offset the throw on the rudder to get the plane to roll both directions equally. I had a T-tail but the elevator was still the standard elevator in the kit on the back of the wing not thte T-tail so comparison may be difficult.
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Dec 11, 2009, 08:27 AM
High Altitude Flyer
viking60's Avatar
Lee,

My T-Tail Snowball has the elevator on the top of the T-tail, somewhat similar to what Russ built on one of his. (I can't say right now if my rudder is larger than what you were flying in the last video, but it could be- the photos posted previously should give you an idea about that aspect. I do have the vertical stabilizer extended forward all the way to the rear edge of the upper KF layer.) The one I am flying rolls well in either direction, and I would say it rolls quickly & positively in the air, and turns very tightly on the water.

Russ,

You mentioned your Snowball bogging down in deep soft snow... it brought to mind a couple guys who used to come to fly at our winter fly-ins who had a matching pair of well-powered lightweight aerobatic aircraft with deep chord symmetrical wings; underneath, where the gear would mount a pair of wheels in the summer (taildragger setup), they had mounted a single WIDE ski- maybe 12" wide and 12" to 14" long. It was made from thin birch aircraft plywood. They could takeoff, land, & generally do very irreverent things on the deep soft powder snow with this single wide ski underneath- much better than most twin ski setups were doing on the un-groomed snow surface.

Maybe it's time to design a foamie 'BIGFOOT' soft snow flyer.

VIKING
Dec 11, 2009, 11:54 AM
Registered User
st99's Avatar
Hey Viking, I like that.----- Foamy Bigfoot soft snow flyer.---Way too COOL.!!!

Hey Lee, hard to believe you could manage to hit that powerline with all that space there. Ha ha ha. I guess just like when I flew mine into a tree. Wakes you up real fast. ha ha ha.

I would like to try a T-tail KF version.
I could go for one of thoes multi plane/scratch build kits/packages you had mentioned earlier in one of the posts. How is that idea comming along.?

Buck
Dec 11, 2009, 07:19 PM
Registered User
Viking
That is a good idea. I wonder if you could put some foam from across the floats to make a larger footprint. To bad I am headed home tomorrow. I will not get a chance to test it on powder snow in Arkansas.

Russ
Dec 11, 2009, 10:21 PM
High Altitude Flyer
viking60's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ40
Viking
That is a good idea. I wonder if you could put some foam from across the floats to make a larger footprint. To bad I am headed home tomorrow. I will not get a chance to test it on powder snow in Arkansas.

Russ
Stretching something across the two floats on a Snowball could certainly be tried... I'm even thinking of something like light weight rip-stop nylon fabric- tough enough to handle the loads, yet light weight... simply tape in place with Scotch Extreme cross-filament tape... could it be that easy? Maybe...

The next question that then comes up... does the stock vertical stabilizer have enough area to stabilize all of the added forward structure???

Viking
Dec 12, 2009, 01:27 AM
Lee
Lee
PERFECT LANDING !!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckwheat
Hey Viking, I like that.----- Foamy Bigfoot soft snow flyer.---Way too COOL.!!!

Hey Lee, hard to believe you could manage to hit that powerline with all that space there. Ha ha ha. I guess just like when I flew mine into a tree. Wakes you up real fast. ha ha ha.

I would like to try a T-tail KF version.
I could go for one of thoes multi plane/scratch build kits/packages you had mentioned earlier in one of the posts. How is that idea comming along.?

Buck
I have hit that power line several times. It's right behind where I like to stand.

We are cutting the scratch build kits special order right now. We don't stock them so there may be a one week delay in shipping. We will offer them for the same price as the Snowball even though they have more foam in the kit until it gets established. It is the kind of a kit I would prefer where I love to prototype. Depending what you are building you may get two planes out of the foam. I would like to see a square wing KF with a T-tail. I think the KF would work better with a straight LE.
Dec 12, 2009, 08:02 AM
If it flys,I can crash it
cptdragn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
The laminate is great. It is a good water barrier as long as it isn't punctured and also decreases drag. we would like feed back on your experiences with the laminate. it does add a little weight to the back of the plane so make sure you aren't tail heavy if you use it.

We are trying to make EPP waterproof. It is now winter time and a warm plane on the snow melts the snow and the plane absorbs the water. Last year I flew a lot of planes without the laminate. This year almost all of my EPP planes will have the laminate for the winter flying. The Snowball is great on deep snow.

Lee, Have you tried the water proofing compound they use on canvas tents? If you could get it to stick to the EPP it should work. I've water proofed other items with it. Here are a few sources:

Trek-7

Losso
Dec 12, 2009, 08:11 AM
Registered User
Viking
I was thinking with the added "wing area" up front would the cg need to be changed? Would the curved up front cause some problems? I may have to try it just to see how it will fly.

Russ
Dec 12, 2009, 09:29 AM
High Altitude Flyer
viking60's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ40
Viking
I was thinking with the added "wing area" up front would the cg need to be changed? Would the curved up front cause some problems? I may have to try it just to see how it will fly.

Russ
Russ,

I'm thinking that the CG should still be the same for the wing- ~25% of total length, as long as the top front doubler panel (if one is used) is also run back on top no more than ~30%. [When a top surface KF panel is extended farther back, it can also shift the 'center of lift' back. ]

Aerodynamicly, there will be more 'structure' forward of the CG than without the additional ski panel, so the enlarged vertical stabilizer is likely required to stabilize this. This is also typical when adding a pair of conventional floats to sport aircraft... my Telemaster needed it, as well as many others.

If the front up-curved end of the 'ski panel' is NOT run all the way up towards the bottom of the wing, it should handle better... much better than if there is no 'airflow duct' between the large wide ski and the underside of the wing. That wide curved panel certainly can be expected to affect the way an essentially flat-plate wing above it flies... it may act like a downward-deflected front canard panel would, lifting the leading edge of the aircraft quite significantly as airspeed increases. (On the aerobatic aircraft with the wide ski underneath, the ski was still only ~20% to ~25% of the total wingspan of the aircraft, and they had large elevators to deal with these fources.)

Ideally, the BIGFOOT ski structure would end up being a symmetrical airfoil from an aerodynamic view, to neutralize the affects on the wing's flight performance across the entire speed range. I'm already visualizing a lower symmetrical 'wing' mounted between a set of EPP float/skis, probably just slightly recessed , maybe ~1/2" (or more?) up from the main ski surfaces so that, on hard-packed and rough-surface snow, the aircraft would be running primarily on the main skis. (I still really appreciate the 'ATV' handling on rough snow of my T-Tail Snowball!) In deep powder snow, the symmetrical 'wing' would provide the extra 'ski' surface area between the main skis.

When I sketch it out on graph paper, however, I find that a 'symmetrical' shape following the float/ ski's front lower profile would end up being a fat beast towards the rear end... so that may have to be revised... it may end up being a 'downward-lifting' airfoil to counteract the inherent positive angle of attack, possibly with the upper rear surface having a reverse reflexed curvature to neutralize the overall affect... (... It's getting away from the K.I.S.S. principle at this point... time for brainstorming other alternatives!)

So the "BIGFOOT" Project begins to shape up in concept, anyway... It's becoming an intrigueing design project!!! I'm beginning to form my own visualizations... I'm really interested to see what Russ & others may come up with as their own variants!

VIKING
Last edited by viking60; Dec 12, 2009 at 12:41 PM.
Dec 14, 2009, 12:47 PM
High Altitude Flyer
viking60's Avatar

Bigfoot overshoes?


In keeping with the K.I.S.S. principle...

It may be far simpler to simply add a wider 'ski' running surface to the existing foam ski / floats on a Snowball. Instead of having 2" wide bottoms, why not add on a plastic overlay that serves as a ski surface that's ~3-1/2" wide? That should handle really soft powder snow.

I'm thinking of either sheet polycarbonate material, or simply the plastic from a 2 litre soda bottle. Attachment can be done with the wide double stick 'Carpet Tape', with a bit of nylon filament tape where appropriate on the front edge, etc.

This would be a removable modification, so that you can go back to the standard condition for most flying; when the deep powder snow comes along, you can again quickly put the "Bigfoot Overshoes" back on!

Works for me... I have ~9" of fresh snow... this may be a good day to test out this brainstorm !
Dec 14, 2009, 06:53 PM
High Altitude Flyer
viking60's Avatar

the "BIGFOOT OVERSHOES" are handling GREAT on the snow!


Friends,

I pulled out a sheet of ~1/32" / .030" thick clear polycarbonate plastic sheet which I had bought from a hobby supply place a ~4 years ago.

I cut out a pair of "BIGFOOT OVERSHOES" for my T-Tail Snowball. I made them 3/4" wider on each side of the 2" wide skis = 3-1/2" wide. They taper down to the width of the noses of my skis in front. This polycarbonate material is tough and very resilient- it cuts well, and does not crack in the cold conditions... ideal for this purpose.

I then peeled off the light blue protective film that came on both surfaces of the plastic sheet, and used Scotch Extreme cross-filament tape to mount these to the skis. (This tape has the most agressive adhesive I have worked with; it grabs onto stuff and just doesn't let go!) I

The results are in the photos below; the T-Tail Snowball is now flying with 3-3/4" wide skis! (This material is totally clear- invisible in the air, & not easy to photograph, but I think that these photos give you an idea- it's a fairly simple process to tape them in place.).

So how do they work? GREAT!! I just took out the snowball across the road from the end of my driveway to a part of a lot that's vacant and unimproved... there is some tall grass and some potentilla bushes sticking out of ~14" of snow. No problem!! I was playing around doing takeoffs & landings, abusing the vegetation, and just generally having a lot of fun. Beating up on small bushes certainly doesn't phase the polycarbonate material- it'll hold up to a lot of irreverent flying. And the snowball is sitting high, not sinking in much at all in this new softer snow.

Each 3-3/4" x 12" 'overshoe' weighs 16.4 grams; so that's roughly 34 grams added to the pair of floats. In flight, I did find myself adding two or three clicks of down-trim, so there is a slight climb influence on the aircraft- especially at full throttle, despite the added weight.

Roll rate is still just as fast- about 1 roll per second, either right or left, on low rates; I didn't kick it into high rates for this test flight. (The right roll is a bit slower than the left roll, due to the prop's rotational forces.)

So here's one simple solution for flying from deep soft powder snow - simply tape on a pair of "BIGFOOT OVERSHOES" to your Snowball's float bottoms!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PROPELLER SWAP

I had been flying a GWS 8043 prop on the EMAX CF 2822 motor since building this aircraft in early October... but the GWS slowfly props are a bit more flexible than I like on some motors. So today I took a GWS DD 9x5 prop which I had trimmed down to 8-1/8", and installed it. I'm liking how this stiffer DD prop is flying the Snowball, so it'll be staying on it for a while.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's a link to the page on my web site about this T-tail build of the SNOWBALL, with the KFm2 Bluecor wing:

http://www.stenulson.net/rcflight/snoballt.htmhttp://www.stenulson.net/rcflight/snoballt.htm

VIKING
Last edited by viking60; Dec 16, 2009 at 11:03 AM.
Dec 16, 2009, 10:53 AM
High Altitude Flyer
viking60's Avatar
I flew the T-Tail Snowball in windy conditions from wind-packed snow yesterday. The .030" / 1/32" thick clear plastic 'Bigfoot Overshoes' seem to be holding up well to snow flying in the cold weather from all snow surfaces.

3" wide ski overlays on this 24" Snowball may be wide enough for soft powder snow flying; I just wanted to test the technique by starting out using the wider ones first. (The 1/2" narrower ones would reduce the added weight by ~5 grams.)

Since they only need to be taped in place, it's fairly easy to install & remove these float bottom extenders.

VIKING
Last edited by viking60; Dec 16, 2009 at 11:05 AM.
Dec 16, 2009, 03:44 PM
Registered User
Viking
I like your "Bigfoot Overshoes" idea. Sounds like it is working great and no worries about CG and stuff. To bad I will not get a chance to use it until next trip to the parents house next year. Not much snow here in Arkansas. Is that polycarbonite about the sme is two liter pop bottle plastic? That is what I use on my floats for protection.

Russ
Dec 16, 2009, 05:21 PM
High Altitude Flyer
viking60's Avatar
Russ,

This stuff I used is thicker- (actually .030 thick) - I used it 'cause I had it here... I'm thinking that the 2 liter soda bottle material will do the job very well too- it's certainly tough enough! And just going to 3" total width, 1/2" out each side of the stock floats, should do fine for all but the lightest of 'champagne powder' snow. (Weight should end up less than what I have used, too.)

Glad you got a chance to play in the snow some this year, too!! It's always fun! Since I get time & in the mood to build new aircraft in the fall & winter, over the last 20 years, I've done far more maiden flights of new aircraft (which are built with landing gear) on skis than on wheels!

Here's wishing everyone enough of a 'White Chriasmas' to do some snow flying this year!!

VIKING
Last edited by viking60; Dec 16, 2009 at 05:48 PM.
Dec 17, 2009, 04:01 AM
NewFlyer
KenChin's Avatar
Here's my third and fourth Snowball and Snowflake. Ready for electronics tonight...


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