Twin Cat and Push-E Cat Lite Protos Fly! - RC Groups
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Feb 02, 2003, 12:17 AM
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Darwin's Avatar

Twin Cat and Push-E Cat Lite Protos Fly!

Hi, Guys:

Got a chance this afternoon to put two packs each through the new TwinCat prototype and the Push-E Cat Lite wing prototype strapped on a standard Push-E Cat.

Pix of the TwinCat are in another thread:

The TwinCat is a BIG success. Flew straight out with very little trim required. Flies fast and smooth. Lots of fun to fly.

Lots of power on twin S400 6V motors. I even did two ROS (rise off snow) takeoffs with it. Nice big loops, easy handling habits.

One thing it does need is a bigger elevator for better inverted flight capabilities, but since I'd already revised the tail design for more area, it'll be good.

The most amazing thing is how quiet it is. After flying regular PECs for so long, it's amazing how much noise goes away when you move the motors outboard. Toward the end of the flight, I was having trouble gauging how much power I had left.

The PEC-Lite wing is a big winner, too. It goes a long way to increasing the glide performance of the base PEC. It also makes a lot of difference in the turning responsiveness.

It's really interesting to fly with a standard wing first, and then pop the PEC-Lite wing on to the same fuselage. That extra ten inches of span makes a world of difference. I strongly suspect that the rounded tips I put on the wing also affect the performance a little.

I'm really excited that the two prototypes have performed so well. Now I can move on to writing the building instructions and get some pre-production kits going.

I've been psyched ever since our flying session this afternoon. I'm really looking forward to showing off at the Fort Wayne Freeze Fly next weekend.
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Feb 02, 2003, 09:05 AM
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Don Sims's Avatar
Great News Darwin!! The Twincat looks good too. how much lighter is the Lite in comparison to the regular PEC?

PLEASE keep this old Tennessee Boy in mind when you do the Beta testing if you do them!!
Feb 02, 2003, 10:14 AM
Registered User
Very nice but afew questions;
- what battery pack were you using?
- what kind of flying time are we looking at?
- When can we expect a done available kit?
- What will the price be{ballpark even}
- where can I stand in line for a beta?!
{have acouple hs-81's sitting here, and pair each of s400 6v and 7.2v motors, spare 10amp ESC, and a hitec supreme/super slim 8 and spectrum 6 waiting for a new home...and...I'm a rookie at flying...want a rookies point of view?!}
Feb 02, 2003, 05:10 PM
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Darwin's Avatar
The 'Lite' in Push-E Cat Lite refers to a reduced wing loading and reduced parasitic drag more than an actual weight reduction. The goal was to make a better soaring Push-E Cat. I'll get some numbers together here this afternoon for comparison.

The PEC Lite proto wing was outfitted with a Speed 400 Long motor, a Sprite 25 speed control, and was flown on eight cell packs of both CP-1300 and KR-1400AE packs. I was able to get a standard PEC flight of 10 minutes on both packs.

Static draw for the S400 long can motor is 11 amps with a 6x4 prop.

The Twin Cat was flown using a pair of 6V S400 motors in paralell configuration with Master Airscrew 5.5x4.5 props, a Sprite 25 speed control, and an 8 cell pack of CP-1700 cells. I was able to use only this pack in the Twin Cat because I shaped the canopy to fit the pack and there was no Velcro in the bottom of the battery bay.

Flight time for the TwinCat was about 6 to 7 minutes.

Static current draw for the twin 6V 400s was about 22 amps (11 amps each motor). This means that the motors and props were working together just right.

For full airplane kits, I need to finish up my drawings for both airplanes, write the instructions, and then get production tooling made. I'm estimating that the TwinCat, the Push-E Cat A (single motor version of the TwinCat), and the PEC Lite will be available by the end of March as production kits.

I will be contacting my list of Beta Testers (yes, Don, you're on there) as soon as I've made some sample kits and have some instructions put together.

However...I will be putting together PEC-A and PEC Lite wing upgrade kits together for sale by the end of February. The TwinCat wing is not an upgrade due to the necessity to fit the speed control inside the fuselage cabin. If done improperly, this can severely compromise the cabin integrity. Therefore, the TwinCat will be a new kit, only.

As far as pricing goes, I am not sure at this time. I need to sit down with my worksheets and figure that out. There are some tradeoffs that need to be considered.
Feb 02, 2003, 06:20 PM
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Jim C's Avatar

Twin Cat...


The Twin Cat is a sharp looking craft. I like the finished look of the rounded rudder, elevator and wing.

I am anxious to add aileron capability to my PEC. Do I understand correctly that the PEC-A wing kit will include ailerons? Will the PEC Lite wing include ailerons?

Jim C.
Feb 02, 2003, 09:28 PM
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Darwin's Avatar
The Push-E Cat A (PEC-A) wing will convert a standard Push-E Cat to a sport aileron plane. The -A will probably need a 400 long can at a minimum, and would probably more fun with a Cobalt or brushless overall.

The PEC-Lite wing is primarily for rudder-elevator use. However, unlike the original PEC wing, the Lite wing is adaptable to aileron/flap operation.

Just to put it in perspective, the standard PEC (58 inch span)has a wing loading of about 12 ounces per square inch. The TwinCat (58 inch span) flies like a true sport plane at 16 ounces per square foot. The PEC-Lite wing (68 inch span) on a standard fuselage provides about 10 ounces per square foot. With a full PEC-Lite fuselage, the loading will go down around 9 ounces per square foot.
Apr 05, 2003, 10:03 AM
Registered User

When will New Creations have the Twin?

Darwin - The twin PEC sound great. When can I place an order with New Creations (or someone else)?

Many Thanks - I love my original PEC and I look forward to the PEC twin.

Apr 05, 2003, 04:51 PM
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Seaplane version of twincat?

Chuck Hill
Apr 06, 2003, 06:39 PM
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Darwin's Avatar
OK, here's a quick update...

I have been working on the instructions. I also had a bit of a problem with the aileron and power wire routing but I resolved that by increasing the size of the equipment bay. (That resolved the problem by removing the requirement to cut all kinds of slots in the bottom of the wing.

I expect to have Beta samples done by the middle of April (wing kits sooner). Production kits will hit the dealers in May. The primary delay right now is working with the laser cutter on quantities, pricing and build schedule. I basically didn't want to band saw the wood parts if I didn't have to, but it's looking like the Beta kits are going that way.

The seaplane version of the Twin Cat is called the Push Sea Cat. It has a completely different fuselage with steps plus plug in wing floats. I expect to prototype it in July. The different fuselage is required for water tight operation.

I haven't said much about the Push Sea Cat due to the fact that I've never tried to design a seaplane before and I'm not sure that I've got this whole hull thing sorted out yet.

I decided against just adding a 'slipper' on the regular PEC fuselage because of the added weight and the additional leak paths.

Additional questions are always welcome. Keep 'em coming!
Apr 24, 2003, 11:54 AM
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any update on PEC Lite and others?

mike i.
Apr 25, 2003, 09:18 AM
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Darwin's Avatar
I wish that I could says that things are going swimmingly, but they haven't been.

The primary issue is that a couple of weeks ago I did my year end summary as part of my taxes, and I got to see exactly what all my evenings and weekends really bought me. It wasn't very pretty. That threw me into a major slump that rotated around the thought, 'What the heck am I doing this for?'

I just about had myself convinced to sell off the CNC equipment I bought last year, finish up some Beta kits, publish plans, and then get the heck out of it. I was pretty much convinced that there isn't really a place for Garrison Aerodrome in the market any more.

However, last night I finally got back in the shop and made foam smoke and EPP dust again.

What it comes down to is that business, any business, no matter how small, is a competition. The obvious competition is the people who are making products that people can choose to spend their money on instead of yours. The inobvious competition is yourself. The biggest obstacle to success is finding the intestinal fortitude to stick with your efforts, especially when things look grim.

It's harder for someone who isn't completely obsessed, self-centered and selfish. If you love your wife and your kids and want to be with them, if you enjoy being part of a community and interacting with people outside your business in a positive manner, success becomes VERY challenging. I suspect that's why there are so many nasty people in the world of business, and why truly good people in that environment are like pearls among swine.

So, after that bit of core dumping, where does that leave the PEC-A, the Twin Cat, and the PEC-Lite, not to mention Garrison Aerodrome?

Last night I cut some center wing panels that are for current production PEC and all the new stuff as well. These panels are what has been holding up all the wing kits as far as physical parts go.

I have done a lot of work on the writing for the instructions. I now have to get the illustrations done, especially for the instruction sections that say, 'see illustration'.

I have NOT gotten the CNC hot wire or CNC router up and running yet. I will be cutting all the Beta kits the same old way, with bandsaw and gravity drag hot wire. I HAVE to get both of the CNC tools running before I can go to production with the new stuff.

I'm reconsidering using a wooden tail boom for the PEC-A, Twin Cat and PEC-Lite. My experiment with the Push-E Kitten has pointed out to me that a tapered tail boom can potentially be acceptable, if properly structured. However, the Twin Cat was really cutting through the wind with its wooden tail boom. *Sigh* It all comes down to tradeoffs.

As far as Garrison Aerodrome goes, I am back in the shop cutting parts. My focus right now is figuring out how to increase my output and reduce my costs. I believe the key lies in the CNC equipment at this point. So I'm back in the saddle until I get knocked out again.
Apr 25, 2003, 12:33 PM
Registered User

Thanks for the update.

I hope you have a better year. I'd like to help. I would like a Lite wing for my PEC and your Push-E Kitten looks great!

mike i.
Apr 25, 2003, 12:50 PM
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Jim C's Avatar
Darwin: It appears to this outsider that you do it because you love your hobby and your product.

As one of your customers, I can testify that that comes through in the quality of your instructions (best that I've ever seen), completeness of your kits (everything you need and nothing that you'd rather make your own decision on) and the well thought through clever designs features of your products. Your products do what you say they will and do it well!

Thanks for your efforts... Jim C.

Push e' Cat - flying
HotCat - a few more work days...
Apr 25, 2003, 01:10 PM
characters welcome!
Mark Wood's Avatar
I still like ya, Dar.

Apr 25, 2003, 01:34 PM
Registered User

Thanks Darwin

Darwin, I have used a Push-E Cat for years to introduce new pilots. I my book its the best trainer available. You have done a great service for the hobby.


Chuck Hill