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Apr 12, 2008, 02:37 AM
Registered User
Mark Harris's Avatar
Thread OP
New Product

New Camera from IF + DVR


Disclaimer: This is my post which i'm allowed each week to encourage users to buy something.


We have a new camera! We've all spent the past month or so testing it and love it to death.

So without further ado, here is a video:
(4 min 36 sec)





It's fully configuration via the buttons on the back, you can change any settings you like. It's a little bit bigger than the IFCam at 30x30mm.

You'll also notice that the colours are much more vivid yet when you turn up the AGC, turn on BLC and ramp it up you get the same light handling as the IFCam, or better! The night mode in the video is with the colour mode on, i forgot to turn it to black and white (Auto).

Full details here
NTSC: http://www.intelligentflight.com/sto...products_id=49
PAL: http://www.intelligentflight.com/sto...products_id=48

We have quite a lot in stock, and the stock levels on the website are accurate for now. Any orders will ship out same day (if before 1PM AWST) as long as they dont include something that is backordered.

You may also like: http://www.intelligentflight.com/sto...products_id=36 which is the 300ma step up, 5v or 2s input will give you the correct voltage output. We run these cameras at 10v, your PSU would be modified for this. The camera running at 10v gives you less heat loss and still the same video quality!

I have personally wasted more than 15 hours flying with this camera and having a blast while i'm at it!


The video above was also recorded on our new Digital Video Recorder we've spent more than a month and a half testing (3 people). We've found this to be excellent quality and now have put it up for sale. It's almost DVD quality, and very easy to us! Our DVR's can be powered off a 2-4s battery.

Please see:
http://www.intelligentflight.com/sto...products_id=50
or with hard disk:
http://www.intelligentflight.com/sto...products_id=51

Please excuse the quality of the descriptions, we're in the process of working on a new web store and i got a bit lazy with updating the old one


Any questions, please post here, OR email me: [email protected] OR contact our helpdesk: http://helpdesk.intelligentflight.com/ OR msn me on the email address listed previously.
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Apr 12, 2008, 02:49 AM
Registered User
JMSTECH's Avatar
I like to make a quick note on the IF OSD Camera. If one needs to compare this to size, it is basically about the same size as the KX151 but with all the bells and whistles.

Anyhow Mark, you think you had fun playing with this.... I'm still having a blast with this great little camera!!! So if all goes well tomorrow I will put it through a rigorous flight again under partly cloudy and sunny day.

JMSTECH
Apr 12, 2008, 03:11 AM
Suspended Account
I have that DVR, and I must say the image quality is not to be compared to a MiniDV with analog inputs, or a simple notebook with an USB video grabber. I too did some extensive testing, I actually either bought or asked for evaluation samples of just about any harddisk or flash based DVR on the market and although this one certainly works well, you're better off with the Lawmate PV-500, or a MiniDV camera.

Cheers,

Sander.
Apr 12, 2008, 03:18 AM
Suspended Account
Also, I just watched the video and the camera has the same problem as the original IF camera, the image is only sharp at the center of the screen, the sides are not sharp, or rather they're even fuzzy. On the original IF camera this effect was augmented by a severe case of tunneling, i.e. the sides would also darken, here's some footage I took with the IF camera for your information.



Cheers,

Sander.
Apr 12, 2008, 03:37 AM
Registered User
Mark Harris's Avatar
Thread OP
That would be because we have one of the widest FOV's out of all the cameras out there. We have lenses on order which will reduce the FOV for users who dont want it so impressively large.

The DVR, we say is almost DVD quality, of course DV quality is going to be the best.. nothing can compete with that.

I have no idea what sort of notebook you're using, but my 2.33ghz intel core 2 duo can't begin to compete with the quality. I max out the cpu and start getting jittery video long before i can get the quality this high unless i opt for raw avi output, which is around 2gb/5 mins vs 500mb/5mins - i dont have that sort of disk space available! A DVR is also a hell of a lot more portable, convenient and user friendly than a laptop in my opinion - not to mention cheaper.

We also have tested a great deal of digital video recorders, and for anything under $390 this is certainly the best quality that we have found. It also has a very convenient voltage input allow you to run it off common lipo's you use in other parts of your ground system.
Apr 12, 2008, 03:40 AM
Registered User
Daemon's Avatar
There's a typo in your DVR specs..
"Bitrate: 9000-12000bps, depending on the video"
should be
Bitrate: 9000-12000kbps, depending on the video

ian
Apr 12, 2008, 04:18 AM
Suspended Account
Mark,

I'm using a simple T2310 based notebook with a USB2.0 video grabber from Plextor which in combination with Ulead VideoStudio 11 gives me MiniDV quality recording, no stutters, no hickups, just pure, real-time video:

Plextor PX-AV200U
http://www.plextor.com/english/products/px-av200u.html

As for the cameras, this is not a FOV issue, as anybody knowledgable about lenses will tell you, it is a lens which isn't matched to the application, the technical term for it is 'vignetting'. Allow me to point you towards the following Wikipedia page that has all the details summarized better than I can hope to achieve in a single post.

Vignetting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vignetting

Cheers,

Sander.
Apr 12, 2008, 05:14 AM
Suspended Account
As a fyi, another video by a 3rd party of the new IF camera shows the same vignetting problem:

http://www.vimeo.com/879466/

Cheers,

Sander.
Apr 12, 2008, 05:38 AM
Registered User
Mark Harris's Avatar
Thread OP
Sander,

I truely have no idea why you feel the need whenever IF announces something to come in here and pick on our products. This is not the first time you have done this. You rarely post on these forums yet within minutes of me posting our announcement you're right here saying what we have is crap. We work exceedingly hard to bring good quality products, innovative products to the market.

I know that you are a pretty intelligent guy, i dont know what you feel you're gaining from this or if you just plain don't like intelligent flight and want to see us fail. It's a shame to see intelligence go to waste such as this, your energies could be much better spent.

It is very disheartening to have a follower such as you, ready to jump on us whenever we try and do something, it is disrespecful at the very least.

A comparison between a $160 digital video recorder to a laptop, capture cable, and software which records in a completely different format has no place here. You're comparing a system that costs (i assume) over a thousand dollars to a single device that fits in your pocket.

I get a great deal of joy out of my job, expanding the reach of FPV and hopefully pushing technology forwards in this aspect of the hobby. Nobody else here is as disrespecful, rude, and ill manned in peoples threads are you are towards Intelligent Flight.
Apr 12, 2008, 05:56 AM
Suspended Account
Mark,

I'm not picking on you, just the fact that you present your products as if they're the next best thing since sliced bread. Frankly this is another example of a product that has some innovative features (the OSD, manual control) but lacks in terms of image quality, which for 99.9% of us is the most important aspect of a camera, so I'm just providing a different perspective than yours.

The fact that I may come across as rude to you is perhaps because we've had dealings in the past where you and me butted heads, so you might feel a certain way towards me? I'm sure others can appreciate a different perspective on something which you sell as being the next big 'wannahave' from IF.

If this had been an outstanding camera in every way, shape and form you would have my order for one already. In this case I think it is only fair to inform the other FPV enthusiasts that these product announcements you post are exactly that, a product announcement obviously intended to generate sales.

For the record, I don't have anything against you, or IF, I just have had many purchases I made turn into a dissapointment (not just from IF). So I'm just trying to prevent others from buying something that might not suit their liking, hence I'm pointing out some of the flaws. In the end the reader him/herself can make up their mind and decide whether it is worthy of a purchase.

If others had done the same in many other product anouncements you and others have made I could've prevented myself spending needles time, money and effort on products that clearly were not performing as advertised.

But again, let the reader decide, that's why I posted the movie from a 3rd party, don't take my word for it, decide for yourself. If you feel that this camera is worth buying, by all means, order one.

All the best,

Sander.
Apr 12, 2008, 08:20 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssassen
As for the cameras, this is not a FOV issue, as anybody knowledgable about lenses will tell you, it is a lens which isn't matched to the application, the technical term for it is 'vignetting'. Allow me to point you towards the following Wikipedia page that has all the details summarized better than I can hope to achieve in a single post.

Vignetting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vignetting
Sander, thanks for the link. I've read the page, and watched your and Sebastians videos. I've got to say, I mostly had to go looking to actually see the vignetting, its nothing like the dramatic effect in the Wikipedia example images. I'm not at all a photography expert so perhaps others would be more sensitive to these effects.

On my reading of the Wikipedia article, the cause of the vignetting here could be either optical, mechanical or pixel vignetting. Optical would only make sense if the camera has a lens sequence, which I don't know, but can be corrected by stopping down the aperture a little. I guess this camera would have a fixed aperture, and given that its intended to deal reasonably well with both very low and very high dynamic range, both within a frame, and through time, the aperture selection is going to be a compromise.

Pixel vignetting is caused by light striking the sensor at an angle. In this case a large field of view would presumably tend to compound vignetting. Do you agree?

Overall though I can't see anything in the two example video's that causes me concern. The blurriness as far as I can see is confined to tiny areas in the corners, and the vignetting is mostly fairly subtle, and where it is more notable, its only so briefly, and seems to be associated with the camera being challenged, say by the sun transiting the field of view. Given the job the camera is doing in terms of responsiveness and visibility, while retaining reasonable colour, it seems like a small issue to me.

Perhaps the ultimate perfect camera doesn't yet exist, in such small forms. There may be people out there who would find these effects intolerable, but I kind of wonder if any camera of this size and price will ever exist to make those happy.

Just to be clear: I have no connection with IF whatsoever (apart from sharing a continent with Mark). Not yet a customer either.
Apr 12, 2008, 08:58 AM
Registered User
I have worked as a camera assistant on movies and tv commercials for a decade and I own the original if camera. I agree with Mark that the vignetting is a lense issue. With a tighter lense the issue of vignetting would not be as bad. No matter how good these little cameras get vignetting will always be a problem with the FOV we fly with. It takes an extremely high quality (and heavy) lense to get rid of it.

Mark
Apr 12, 2008, 09:17 AM
Suspended Account
Quote:
On my reading of the Wikipedia article, the cause of the vignetting here could be either optical, mechanical or pixel vignetting. Optical would only make sense if the camera has a lens sequence, which I don't know, but can be corrected by stopping down the aperture a little.
Well, the vast majority of these cameras have a lens comprised of multiple elements, which is also the case here, hence this clearly is a poor lens design.

Considering the fact that the cameras we often use for FPV (the KX-131 and KX-151) do not have this issue leads me to believe that the OEM that made these cameras for IF doesn't have as strong a grip on lens technology as KT&C does. That being said, the KX-131 and KX-151 can be equipped with a variety of lenses which *never* cause for any vignetting, only the very wide angle has slight unsharpness at the edges. Considering that lens has a far greater FOV that the IF camera (as per the below video) that kind of proves the point that lens design needs a little more work on the IF camera.

KX-131 with very wide angle lens


But again, if you don't see the vignetting, or have not looked at the image quality of other cameras, then this might just fit your bill.

Cheers,

Sander.
Apr 12, 2008, 11:21 AM
Registered User
Mark Harris's Avatar
Thread OP
I gotta say it, i never noticed any bluring in the corners while flying with this, or while editing this full screen on a 19" lcd monitor. If you're seeing bluring the sander your eyes are far better than mine. I can see a little bit when the plane is rolling around, but i think that is the deinterlace filter more than teh camera. I'm really, honestly, struggling to see the blur once the aircraft is in the air. On the ground i can see it but i'm pretty sure that is a focus issue with the ground being closer than the 300m away that i had my friend focus the camera for. I dont focus the camera myself because my eyes are not good enough to pick the exact spot for it.

The darkness in the top left is the wing btw.

Just spent the last 20 mins rewatching a great deal of video footage frame by frame to try and find some of this. I'm at the point where i'm willing to blame this on XViD on the DVR, high turn rates and extremely rapid movement (ie: corners of video when hundreds of metres up) do cause a bit of blurring with MP4 codecs. I'm wating the 1.1GB raw video here, not the 65mb internet upload video that is made from over 10gb of video. Sebastian uses our DVR's also i believe.

See this picture (sorry for the size, it's blown up 500%).

The numbers after the text is the position in the raw video (+ 3 minutes) where the frames are. This is the school at the end of the parkland (grey building surrounded by trees). This is the path on the west side against the road, the white block is a 30+m long community hall thing. The white line only a pixel or two wide on the original is a footpath. Here i can (personally) see a bit of motion blur (look at the roof of the building). This area is the very very very corner of the video... if you're complaining about this much of a blur you need to pass around whatever you're smoking - it must be damn potent.

Don't take this the wrong way sander, but this is EXACTLY what i was talking about. I've just wasted over an hour trying to prove my own sanity to myself. To me, your video has terrible vignetting, just like mine does. This goes beyond just commenting on a video, this is outright picking on the finest detail which i had to look *extremely* hard to see, and wouldnt have ever noticed if i didnt spend such a long time looking at full frame, full quality, frame by frame.

You can see the difference of the FOV here: these are cameras in EXACLTY the same position:
KX-131:

IF Cameras:


those are from Thomas' website: http://webx.dk/rc/video-wireless/cam...camcompare.htm
Apr 12, 2008, 11:50 AM
Registered User
Daemon's Avatar
Some general questions about the camera.
Does it have a user settable white balance option? (point it at a white/grey
surface and sample)

Are the lenses totally custom, or do they share the same diameter/threads with
say, the KX-151? I like about a 90 degree FOV on a panning camera
rather than sacrificing some detail for the ultra wide.

Does the case use the same type of 4 pin plug as the KX-151? (wondering
if I'll have to make up a new wiring harness).

Might be useful to post a 10-15 second clip to Vimeo, straight from the PVR,
so folks can download to see native level of compression.

ian


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