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Old Feb 13, 2008, 01:13 AM
gwenhastings is offline
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Recommendations for a EZ*(or other) FPV/UAV design for Public Safety/LEO usage


Hi All,
OK I have been ghosting these forums since july (learning) and I have been designing UAV software since 5 years ago.

What I am seeking is a list of recommendations for equipment/practices/safety for developing a UAV for eventual deployment by public safety employees/LEO in the SFO bay area.

Certain design parameters have already surfaced.

1. Design weight below 5 lbs in case of collision with LEO/NGO helicraft.(ie designed to self destruct harmlessly).

2. Construction of EPP/Elapor etc due to reason #1 above.

3. Awareness of Published FAA flight aids in production of flight plans(synthetic vision)(Open eagle and others)

4.use of frequency agile / Software defined radio for all tx/rx onboard, to facilitate experimentation as a hobby activity privately under US FCC Amateur rule while retain the ability to convert for commercial licensing with simple reprogramming.

5. easy repair ie use of Hot Glue hobby guns instead of exotic adhesives
(mean epp/elapor/PVC fab possibly others)

6. crash worthiness ie final approach is to fly within 2 feet of ground level then use flaps and reverse prop pitch to intentionally stall/crash in a small area.

7. use of paparazzi/other GPL autopilot software or rudder home OSD designs.

8. cost below 1.5k in production ,sales cost less than 3k(1 up).(standard formula)(and to encourage others to vend/support their local Public safety organizations with this design)
(twin boom PVC UAV Here I come!!!).

9. GPL design for all results(to encourage open adoption)! and easy duplication.

10. YOUR INPUT!!!


kind regards
gwen hastings
ps let the flame wars begin!!!
Last edited by gwenhastings; Feb 13, 2008 at 01:20 AM.
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Old Feb 13, 2008, 01:53 AM
Daemon is online now
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The only question I have is, is there actually *any* legal way to do this,
according to the FAA or FCC? As I understand it, UAVs are possible for
hobby use, and military use, and there simply is no commercial path
available.

ian
Old Feb 13, 2008, 02:38 AM
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Further comments


Hi Ian,
thanx for replying, The purpose for this whole discussion is to discover a set of design / usage guidelines that WILL meet FAA approval, ie my dad before his death was a GS-14 for the FAA so I am QUITE familar with FAA procedures and rule making and know how to proceed there.

What I am seeking is a path of least harm when mixed with GA(General Aviation) aircraft over urban areas.

I have obtained US technician licensing for my RF amateur experimentation and will apply for FCC/FAA waivers as necessary for my legal operations.

(That is the ONLY approved path for public safety/LEO operations WHICH are NOT precluded by current FAA rules)

(previous experiments failed to obtain these necessary waivers(including the LA sheriffs department))

the experiment(s) in texas recently DID apply for and receive the necessary waivers from the FAA for public safety tests)

kind regards
gwen
Old Feb 13, 2008, 02:43 AM
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Technically, definitely doable.

Legally, uncertain. As Daemon mentioned, I don't think there is a path for commercial UAV approval (right now).

I have similar interests in making a FPV-UAV but for hobby usage. I like the EZStar for it's slow stall speed and stability, but suffers in dealing with high winds and endurance because of it's 'relatively' high drag frame.
Old Feb 13, 2008, 02:47 AM
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Waivers for experiments and time periods / tests is one thing, full blown commercial usage is another. Good luck with the waiver process and let us know how it goes. I think a lot of us would be very interested in your experience!
Old Feb 13, 2008, 03:18 AM
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DHS and texas UAV ops


Hi anci3nt,
the current thrust is being driven via DHS with the FAA's full compliance it would seem.

given the results in the texas experiments over urban areas it would seem that FAA relaxation/fresh friendly rulemaking of UAV/FPV rules could be forthcoming.

waivers are for my experiments, and others, full scale ops may depend on the ability of the UAV to harmlessly self destruct on collision with GA aircraft.


kind regards
gwen
ps whose LEO friend(s) have predicted that his UAV(s) will become a favored target of the gangs in the oakland flats (if I make them large enough to see at altitude)
Last edited by gwenhastings; Feb 13, 2008 at 04:48 AM.
Old Feb 13, 2008, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anci3nt
Technically, definitely doable.
Legally, uncertain. As Daemon mentioned, I don't think there is a path for commercial UAV approval (right now).

I have similar interests in making a FPV-UAV but for hobby usage. I like the EZStar for it's slow stall speed and stability, but suffers in dealing with high winds and endurance because of it's 'relatively' high drag frame.
I've been toying w/ a long wing EZ*. It seems to do much better in higher winds.

With a 2s, 2300mAH, 2800KV Inrunner, 30A ESC, 5 X4 Apc prop, AUW of 27 oz, I've been able to fly 1 hour and 8 minutes on the short wings.

With the extra lift afforded by the long wings and a 6 X 4 prop, I think I can carry maybe two extra batteries for flight time of nearly 3 hours. All this at an AUW of around 36 oz.

Haven't done that yet, but I should, soon. I'll report back...
Old Feb 13, 2008, 10:38 AM
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A helicopter rotor blade coming into contact with _anything_ while moving is an insanely bad idea. Strike one of those meaty AXI motors with the leading edge of a rotor blade and you'll be staring at the real possibility of a catastrophic failure.

Bad Joss, Taipan!

g.
Old Feb 13, 2008, 02:25 PM
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helicopter/gyrocopter blades and lawn chairs.


Hi Gene,
I used to think that before becoming a gyrocopter pilot(1 crash and counting), while ground/building strikes will make a BIG mess of things,


impact with birds and other objects can and does happen(thats why LEO/military choppers have that jagged metal blade mounted on certain models just in front of the pitch hub)

(hint its a wire cutter for at least up to tv guy wire thickness).

During the rotor blade reordering process(this was in the 1980's) the particular company manufacturing the asymetric 22 ft rotor blade specified for the Air command 532 used lawn chairs thrown into the path of the main rotor(while rotating at takeoff speed) as part of their testing regimens
(I think that kind of outdoes AXI motor masses)

I CANT answer for helicopter rotor blades from my own personal knowledge(but strolling through the Hiller museum in san mateo(to get some ideas) and talking to some of the retired engineers that always seem to hang around there revealed that except for the pitch control assemblies helicopter blade construction is even heavier than that of a gyrocopter.)


Part of the key for acceptance by the FAA here I believe will be avoidance collision systems based on mode S xmissions and synthetic vision awareness of published flight plans(by GA and commercial craft) and usage of same in flightplanning software for UAV missions.

(ie the no sparrow shall go untracked approach the FAA seems to be currrently following),

thus my interest in emisssion/frequency agile Software Defined radios for sending and receiving Mode S and other xmissions for collision avoidance so the UAV is trackable by ATC.

(and I am trying to keep EVERYTHING under 5 lbs and made of mostly foams.

Lidar chips have gotten chip scale recently(MEMS tech based) and these may also be included in the system designs that ultimately pass FAA/FCC muster.

And as my intended design guidelines/operation guides are intended as an adjunct to public safety operations the collision issues are somewhat mitigated by coordination/communications between various public safety elements in the area of operations.

NGO operations I dont intend to address as they are a completely different set of legal rules for operations.

I am however worried about heavy AXI motors raining out of the sky post collision on some hapless citizens head and welcome ideas,thoughts about how to mitigate that,

including use of structural plastics rather than metal where ever possible,

think of the mostly plastic construction of current LEO choices for pistols(ie the glock and others) now think of brushless motor design in the same vein.


and hoped for weight savings, minimal mass during collision and hopefully complete destruction of the motor to small chips of magnets and bits of motor windings without damage to a citizen or a helicopter blade.

and impact friendly motor fab I might decide to have one of the local motor winders on rcgroups do instead.(damned brittle bones again).


kind regards
gwen
ps I am up for problem solving discussions about this subject instead of merely saying its NOT possible/cant be done ,hint it will be done(DHS is already experimenting with much larger UAVs for operating in the urban environment.)
I merely want to make my GPLed design MUCH safer than the alternatives.
Old Feb 13, 2008, 03:17 PM
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This might be helpful in your quest?
http://www.uatar.com/RTCA%20SC-203%2...rol%20Form.pdf

The link above looks like an early draft for appendix A in the RTCA doc you can purchase here
http://www.rtca.org/onlinecart/product.cfm?id=408


Might find some other stuff here:
http://www.astm.org/cgi-bin/SoftCart...660+1202948543
Last edited by lvspark; Feb 13, 2008 at 03:27 PM.
Old Feb 14, 2008, 11:27 AM
lvspark is offline
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Do a google search for FMI 3-04.155
Old Feb 14, 2008, 12:34 PM
Crash9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwenhastings

What I am seeking is a path of least harm when mixed with GA(General Aviation) aircraft over urban areas.

I have obtained US technician licensing for my RF amateur experimentation and will apply for FCC/FAA waivers as necessary for my legal operations.

(That is the ONLY approved path for public safety/LEO operations WHICH are NOT precluded by current FAA rules)

(previous experiments failed to obtain these necessary waivers(including the LA sheriffs department))

the experiment(s) in texas recently DID apply for and receive the necessary waivers from the FAA for public safety tests)

kind regards
gwen
Looks like you've been doing your homework on this subject. I don't believe you will run into to many problems since your doing it the correct way by getting permission first rather then how the other departments have handlled it .

PVC Twin Boom I love mine. 4.8lbs loaded.


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