winch motor - RC Groups
Thread Tools
Jan 25, 2008, 07:30 PM
Registered User
Discussion

winch motor


Hi all: We are trying to put together a winch for our club. Any try out the TB1225 motor sold by Injoy? He no longer sells the 3110 and 3115 Ford Long Shaft motors. I am told that the mounting pattern is different (4 hole vs 3 hole) is different for these replacement motors. Comments anyone??
Thanks
AJ
BSS Lexington, KY
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Jan 25, 2008, 08:04 PM
Registered User
jbrandon's Avatar
I make winches using the same motor sold by Injoy. The TB1225 motor is a 2.5HP motor and is an almost exact replacement for the FLS motor. The TB1248 produces 4.8HP and makes into a potent winch which is favored by most molded flyers. While is sounds like the horse power is doubled the launch is much milder than you would expect but with the additions of that extra punch when you need or want it.

These new motors come from the factory with ball bearings and are rated for continuous duty unlike the Ford starter motor.

The mounting is different and several of us have tried to make an adaptor to adapt the TB series of motors to an existing FLS frame with out much success. The problem is the mounting holes for the new motor are within the diameter of the motor and not external like the FLS. So when an adaptor is introduced to the mix the drums become too wide by as much as 3/8”. Narrowing the drum is out of the scope of most hobbyists because the drum must run true.

We have several of the 4.8HP winches in service in our club and are very happy with the performance of them. Personally I would opt for the 4.8HP motor vs the 2.5, you will not out grow it.

Hope this helps.

Jim Brandon
Jan 26, 2008, 09:25 AM
Registered User

3110


We smoked one of our motors last week. With the usual discussion about the difficulty getting a replacement I was apprehensive. It was time for a replacement, not just a rebuild. A thorough internet search yielded quite a few sources for the 3110. I paid $89.00 - new. Search, you'll learn all about old Ford tractors. Brush and rebuild kits are also out there, very reasonable.
Jan 26, 2008, 09:46 AM
Hot Dawg Glider Pilot
schrederman's Avatar
I just got my 3110 at NAPA. I paid 88.00.

Jack
Jan 26, 2008, 09:58 AM
Registered User

winch


Thanks for all the responses guys. We will weigh our options and see which is the best way to go.
Regards
AJ
Jan 30, 2008, 10:02 AM
Loopie/Zoomie ≠ Soaring
superskeg's Avatar
...
Last edited by superskeg; Oct 11, 2013 at 01:41 AM.
Jan 31, 2008, 03:10 AM
Registered User
rogerflies's Avatar
The efficiency of these motors is usually about 65%, so the 4.8 is going to have to radiate about 1200 watts to the air around if it running continuously at full rated power. That's about the same as an element on an electric stove. I seriously doubt it can do that without any ventilation or fan cooling.

It's hard to imagine repetitive launches quicker than three minutes apart, even in a contest, so a twenty second launch every three minutes is only 11% duty cycle. My guess is the duty cycle in most cases is much less.

I've only had the pleasure of working with one of the new Injoy motors (a 2.5), but it seems to be quite good. It's WAY better than any of the rebuilt FLS motors I've seen lately from NAPA and elsewhere. I won't even comment on the pile of junk from India that looked like a FLS.

Roger
Last edited by rogerflies; Jan 31, 2008 at 04:28 AM.
Jan 31, 2008, 06:27 AM
Life is Good!
Tank52's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by superskeg
Continuous duty for what service? Launching F3J ships? Pulling jeeps out of the mud? There are usually load, current ,voltage and temperature numbers that go along with a continuous duty rating. Are the 4.8hp motors rated for continuous duty? What entity did the rating? Are they Injoy motors or "like" Injoy motors?
Please explain
I'm considering a 1225 Injoy motor as a replacement for the 12V NAPA rebuild that I have. Will the Injoy motors work with the stock (3115) mount on the Superskeg winches or will I need to build another adapter to mount the Injoy to the Superskeg frame?

Tank
Jan 31, 2008, 01:22 PM
Loopie/Zoomie ≠ Soaring
superskeg's Avatar

Customized Off Road Winch Motors (CORWM)


...
Last edited by superskeg; Oct 11, 2013 at 01:42 AM.
Feb 01, 2008, 12:10 AM
Registered User
jbrandon's Avatar
At the risk of starting another “winch wars” I want to rebut some of your statements.

The motors Tom has sourced are excellent replacements for our needs and it is time for a replacement.

I do take exception to your statement about the mounting holes being “crooked”, I have not been able to verify this by any means I have available or by having a machine shop try to verify your statement. Perhaps you could explain what you mean by crooked and that may help with my discovery. Tom did mention you said something about a counter sunk screw not sitting flush but do not know so please enlighten me. I also wonder what you are implying by “do not stall them”. I have stalled a 4.8 motor on the test stand and other than the current going out of sight and a quick snap sound nothing happened. Upon inspection we figured the armature would be burned but all we found was evidence of some minor arching and pitting but no catastrophic damage. No, we did not set there for hours on end in the stall condition, just momentary stall. I’m still using the motor in my personal winch. Quite honestly I don’t think the 4.8 motor can be stalled on launch.

I have been told the factory in India has closed and the Lester 3110 motor is no longer being manufactured and the only source of new motors are the ones still out there on the shelf. Someone posted links to several early Ford starter motors for around $180, good money after bad in my opinion. In fact even in the item description it states they are rebuilt so they are not new. NAPA still has their rebuilt motors on the shelf for around $90 but good luck on what you get.

Also I take exception to your reference to the 4.8 equaling a 3110. I have tested over 50 FLS (Lester 3110) motors and have never seen more than 3.8 HP even with ball bearings installed and tweaking the brush plate. This testing was done on a machine used by a rebuild shop to verify motors which have been rebuilt, not my subjective testing. Subjective testing we have flown off a couple of extremely potent FLS winches equipped with real balls set up along side a winch with the 4.8HP motor and there is no comparison. While the initial launch is similar the 4.8 never bogs down and the extra HP during the zoom is over the top, so to speak.

The manufacture states the 2.5 and 4.8 motors are considered continuous duty. I have requested an explanation from them but it has not arrived yet but will post it once it does. They also state the holes in the casing have nothing to do with cooling of the motor, either the FLS or the new motors. They rely entirely on the mass of the housing and the connection to what ever it is mounted to dissipate the heat. A fan my help but without more area (fins) a fan will not do all that much. In our application we will not have the mass of the machine to help with heat dissipation and it may become an issue with prolonged use as it currently is with the FLS motors.

All parts are available from the source including field coils, armatures, bearings, brushes and brush springs. While the armature is custom only the shaft length is custom not the windings. A kit is also available for rebuild but I do not know what it contains or its cost. Bearings are standard sized and available from many vendors if that need arises. Brushes are available from any automotive electrical rebuild shop and many parts houses. Any competent rebuild shop can source the parts and I am told by my friend who owns a DC motor rebuild business it would cost around $60-80 to do a rebuild as long as the housing, field coils and armature are in good enough condition to reuse.

Injoy is selling the 4.8 motor for $350 and you want to add $110 to that cost to make them fit your winch frames? It is a nice option for those who have winches with the FLS mounting but an expensive one for sure. I have retrofitted several FLS winches to the new motor mounting using an adaptor and they look nice and work very well. But in every case the drum had to be narrowed by as much as 3/8” and that is out of the skill set of most hobbyists. Hacksaw and file will not cut it this time.

You are correct about Tom doing the leg work so by all means go to Injoy and purchase the motors from Tom. I made an agreement with Tom not to sell the motors outright and I will honor that agreement even though I no longer purchase motors from him. Besides I build and sell complete ready to launch winches, not winch kits or winch parts.

And in summery, the FLS has been around for longer than I have been alive (and that is a long time), it is time to find a new motor for our winch use, redesign the frames, get on with flying and stop living in the past.

Jim Brandon
Feb 01, 2008, 01:55 AM
Registered User
Thank-you J. Brandon for the information, and your efforts to offer a new alternative to the age old problem of getting sailplanes into the air.
Feb 01, 2008, 02:41 AM
Registered User
rogerflies's Avatar
I believe the new motors are derived from hydraulic pump motors used on snow plows and other similar equipment. In those applications, they are mounted to heavy pump bodies, which act as a heat sink. The fluid transfers some of the heat away from the pump and motor.

They may run continuously while the machine is being used, but they're not putting out rated power all the time. The pump moves fluid through an open loop, and that doesn't take much power. Valves are used to divert the flow into the cylinder(s) when part of the machine needs to move, and that's when the motor starts to work harder as more pressure is developed. There's a pressure relief valve somewhere in the system to limit pump output pressure (and required motor output) if a cylinder is stalled. You'd never want to deadhead the pump and stall the motor. You wouldn't want to run the system for very long with fluid going through the relief valve either.

Roger
Feb 01, 2008, 06:10 AM
Life is Good!
Tank52's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by superskeg
Mike
The TB1225 will not work with ford holes without an adapter. When Tom from Injoy sent me the prototype TB1225 (it didn't have a # then) I was eager to replace the FLS and devoted several months testing and retooling (see attached drawings) early last year in hopes of using the CORWM for my winch kits however after much consideration I came to the conclusion the only reasonable solution was to continue the ford hole pattern and replace the CORWM front bearing plate with a new bearing plate with the ford hole pattern. CORWMs are very similar to the FLS so I already have tooling to easily build adapter bearing plates however the shaft length has changed since the prototype so the dimensions I developed are no longer valid. The cost would be about $110 when the shaft length is standardized however until then they would have to be custom fit to each motor

The good news is your winch has the ford holes and it's easier to adapt the CORWM to ford holes then visa versa. With ford holes you won't get stuck with an orphan.

CORWMs have potential to make excellent sailplane winch motors (just don't stall them!) but remember they are about equal in performance to FLS motors:
2.5HP CORWM = 3115 FLS
4.8HP CORWM = 3110 FLS
In my opinion the duty cycle is not much different from an FLS with ball bearings perhaps less because they lack ventilation as mentioned by Roger and by me in other threads but the quality is excellent (except the crooked mounting holes). If you will be launching F3J ships you will be needing replacement armatures, brushes, and springs and since the armatures are custom built I am concerned about the availability. That issue will have to resolved before I will climb on the CORWM bandwagon.

Tom (Injoy) did the leg work and took the risk to bring them to the sailplane market plus his other contributions to soaring so if you decide to go with a CORWM be sure to check with Tom first. It's difficult for Tom to answer motor questions while he recuperates so the important things to remember are CORWM = FLS in performance and you'll need a custom adapter for ford holes.
Tom,
Thanks for the info...I am completely impressed with the quality of workmanship of your winch kit so I'm sure any adapter you put together will be a fine addition as well. I think for now anyway I'll plan to continue to use the NAPA rebuild that I have with REAL BALLS installed. At $80 with warranty, I can afford to go through a couple and if I get a lemon NAPA will replace it under warranty until a time when these motors aren't available. On the other hand, I look forward to hearing about better motor solutions for getting my craft airborne.

Best regards,
Tank

Tank
Feb 02, 2008, 12:37 PM
Registered User
This may be a really dumb question, but, has anyone looked into the use of modern brushless motors for winch use? Perhaps with a simple reduction gear...
There seem to be some fairly brutal pieces of motor out there for not too stupid money.


Just a thought....
Christopher


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion 2-speed Ford Longshaft Winch Motor? rogerflies Thermal 8 Oct 04, 2006 05:54 PM
Discussion F3B winch motor Antares Thermal 14 Apr 03, 2006 05:02 AM
FS on EBAY, Sailplanes, Winch, Motor NickW Aircraft - Sailplanes (FS/W) 3 May 30, 2004 03:08 PM
FS: Tow Winch motor Littlescreamers Aircraft - Sailplanes (FS/W) 0 May 28, 2004 05:08 AM