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Nov 13, 2007, 12:48 PM
Registered User
ydevriendt's Avatar
Discussion

POWAY 2008 = finally genuine F3K Rules ?


Hello fellow competitors,

I was just wondering if, for the 2008 edition, the IHLGF at Poway will go for the new genuine F3K tasks ? As have all the European F3K contests in the meantime.

Or will we still see the traditional Fred Astair "Do you wanne dance" type of tasks ?

Thanks for your input.

Yves De Vriendt
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Nov 13, 2007, 01:51 PM
M Seid
M Seid's Avatar
Fred Astair? Thats funny. We prefer Frank Sinatra references like "fly me to the moon..."
But a good question. The IHLGF Committee has not met for the 2008 IHLGF- which will be the 15th anniversary of the contest- and we hope the best yet.

A question for you all- would we get more competitors from overseas if the task list was modified to all f3k?
Nov 13, 2007, 02:10 PM
Registered User
ydevriendt's Avatar
[QUOTE=M Seid]Fred Astair? Thats funny. We prefer Frank Sinatra references like "fly me to the moon..."

"We prefer" ??? To my recollection, only the Roman Emperors and the French Louis IV spoke in plural...But you're right Frank knows how to fly to the moon.
Personnally I prefer Diana Krall ;-))) But that's Jazz, not F3K.

With the Mickey Mouse tasks in Poway, some European Topguns just wonder if it is worth their while (and money) to travel to LAX.

Matthias, is this still too harsh you think ? Mind you without shaking the tree a tiny little bit we'll never get anywhere... anyway .

"We" salute you,

Yves
Nov 13, 2007, 02:52 PM
Launch high. Fly low.
Mickey Mouse tasks in Poway???

WE think the new F3K rules are more Mickey Mouse--- 30sec landing time? No penalties for additional launches? 30sec first flight for the ladder?

Jun
Nov 13, 2007, 02:58 PM
Bruce Davidson
got2soar's Avatar
Just my opinion but I think ALL handlaunch contests should adapt the F3K tasks even if they are a bit hokey.

See ya there

Bruce Davidson
Nov 13, 2007, 03:01 PM
jrerickson
jrerickson's Avatar
Yves,

Please tell me which tasks are "Mickey Mouse". The 5 two's? The 1,2,3 and 4? We've been trying F3K tasks at contests here and I've got to say they might be more "Mickey Mouse" than any task at Poway. F3K-A, 30 seconds, or multiples of 30 seconds?

The number one difference between the Poway tasks and the F3K tasks is that at Poway you have to be on the ground at the end of the window. The F3K 30 second over fly rule makes things much more relaxing, but the Poway window is much more demanding. You have to judge when to leave a downwind thermal because you have a very real time constraint. Much more like F3J, actually.

I'm all for unifying tasks, but please, no "Mickey Mouse" comments.

John
Nov 13, 2007, 03:15 PM
Registered User
Just a quick note because I have to leave home in about five minutes. Maybe I'll post more later.

Ron Schark (no time to look up correct spelling) told me at Poway last year that he intended to use F3K tasks at the IHLHGF for 2008. There was a good reason why they had not switched to the F3K tasks earlier which I won't repeat here. I hope that they will use only the commonly used F3K tasks from the Eurotour, I'll be happy to expand on that later. They should dump the "total time" tasks in my opinion. I define "total time" tasks as those tasks where all flight time counts. There is room to use the good Eurotour F3K tasks while keeping some of the IHLGF traditions (like requiring you to land at the buzzer or adding extra throw penalties).

I can talk more about this later, it is an important topic.
Nov 13, 2007, 04:57 PM
Registered User
I can understand the USA wanting to keep their own version of the rules... in the UK we were also unhappy to see some of our favorite tasks and our own domestic interpritations of the rules disappear with the 'official' F3K rules. (Personally I think the 15 second ladder is a waste of a task)

F3J, F3B, F3F etc are all flown to the same rules around the globe, when all the pilots meet every 2 years for the world champs they all understand the rules perfectly. This should be the same for F3K.

The Poway tasks and rules possibly are better than the F3K ones, however for an international competition I would hope to fly to internationally recognised rules.

If Poway resists adopting the rules recognised by the rest of the world, it risks losing its status within the wider F3K community as being one of the top international events.

Having said this, I will be attending Poway in 2008 regardless of the rules... but I suspect many of our european friends will struggle to justify it.
Nov 13, 2007, 06:29 PM
Transplant Chey WY from Reno
Thermaln2's Avatar
I would like to respond as I have seen HLG from the beginnings and have extreme thoughts both ways.

The issues that are being debated here are philosophical issues regarding DLG. Please remember that F3K rules were developed outside of the US and during a time when DLG launches were non-existent, or perhaps just starting. Additionally, I am unaware of any US submissions to the F3K change policies. Overall, I have noticed that US competitions have been quite varied and many tasks are in continual revision.

Here in the US, we have flown HLG a lot longer than HLG contests abroad. I recall that Dave Thornburg brought his “Sunbird” over to Europe around 1978/9, and personally, I was flying HLG many years before that time.

I am taken back by the comment that Poway should cater to F3K. In fact, I really hope they do not. I have only recently flown the modified ladder task, for example, but the F3K task is distinctly different than the ladder task flown in Poway.

Let’s look at that task. What does elimination of the 15 second flight constitute? With the 15 second flight, the pilot has to launch on time, land at an exact time, and relaunch. During the flight, the pilot must identify lift, especially toward the latter flights, and decide upon what they will do in the next flight. There is no time to look around and identify what you are going to do. It is calculating and quick decisions are required. If you have an average turn around time, you can land and relaunch easily. The task shows precision timing and decision making.

In the F3K ladder task, there is an additional 15 seconds of landing and flight decision time. In DLG time units, this is really a lifetime. (Sound like and Android you know???) I find this task very enjoyable, versus highly competitive. For general DLG and the desire to attract pilots, this is a nicer task.

Going on with a few other comments, I think the 30 second end working window landing time should be eliminated. It should be eliminated because what is being said is that the “working window” is 10 minutes 30 seconds, not 10 minutes. How about being consistent across all F3X events?

What is the difference between 2,2,3,3 in a 10 minute exact window, versus 2,2,3,3 in a 10 minute 30 second window? It is still total time.

So philosophically, what are the events being designed to do?
Is it:
1) Precision timing in a task?
2) Precision lift identification?
3) Precision flying?
4) Is it the best L/D?
5) Is it the best ranging?
6) Is it the best flying?
7) Are tasks supposed to permit you to remain competitive if you drop a flight within a round? (Not drop a round!)
8) Are we expecting the pilot to determine and then act upon flying conditions?
9) Are we after fun fly contests, or fell good contests?

How do throw penalties, for example, affect how a pilot flies a round? The “last two flights” F3K tasks are a lot like Poway throw penalties. What is DLG if it is not total time? Throw penalties add extra requirement to the decsions required. Why do designers build high launching models if it is not total time? Isn’t that what F3B, F3J and all the rest are about? If it is not total time, then why does launch height matter? How about proposing a task where launch “Height” does not matter?

I do not understand the arguments that pilots do not know what tasks are going to be flown at Poway? When the contest is announced, the tasks are posted. That is months in advance. What is the problem that the tasks are not F3K tasks? If you are a good pilot, and DLG flying was always supposed to be spontaneous, then you can adapt.

I have to admit that Poway competition requires a lot of thought on the part of the pilot. Each pilot must go into the tasks open minded to the requirements, yet adaptable to maximize their point potential. A pilot knows that if a 45 second flight is missed in the ladder that they have an extra 2 minutes of decision time to insure they get the 1:45 second flight. Poway is not meant to be for the layman, although many of us fly in the contest.

I tire of hearing that the US needs to conform to the world. In fact, I have often heard the comments in the US asking why the F3K rules are so non-challenging and “Mickey Mouse”.

Let me throw another “safety” issue into the rules that I have often attempted to have answered. How does a CD handle an issue where the “hit flyer” is lying in pain on the ground after being hit by a launcher, with their plane flying and perhaps crashing? Does the pilot get a reflight? There is no rule to cover this, yet thr rule does state the offender is penalized. Hmmm…I wonder.

I have read reports of Phil’s flying experiences in Europe, and look forward to his comments. I have read the proposed rule changes. I try to keep an open mind on the proposals, yet I think the rules are not there quite yet.


Chris Adams
Nov 13, 2007, 06:36 PM
M Seid
M Seid's Avatar
First, as a committee member, talking about this now is fantastic. I appreciate that you brought it up and take no offense to Mickey Mouse, or tree shaking, or jazz.

The IHLGF committee (we) are not interested in losing either your participation or (our) leadership as the longest standing and best run contest DLG has. We WANT your opinion, and respect the direction the community is going. The tasks that have been run for years, in many ways have influenced the current set of f3k tasks.

We really want the 15th anniversary of the IHLGF to be special. We want to be able to say thank you to the group that has organized the contest for the last 15 years. We want the contest to be the best attended, and most rewarding for the contestants.

I think comments expressing opinions from the international flyers are very welcome. We take them seriously and appreciate the distance you travel.

I dont think that a debate over what is preferrable f3k vs IHLGF is useful here, only because its already been said, and weve all read it. I would also point readers to each of the local poway contests that the club has put on each month this year. Every contest we have had has incorporated f3k tasks (with the exception of the August contest which we renamed 'the porter ladder' ). The So Cal Cup series which just concluded was also f3k.
Nov 13, 2007, 07:52 PM
Flying IS the hobby
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Seid
A question for you all- would we get more competitors from overseas if the task list was modified to all f3k?
Not just overseas... just as Richard S stated, I think domestically at some point in the near future out-of-staters would have to think of way to justify the trip to Poway if the rules didn't follow some sort of 'world' standard, not all but most should be F3K, specially since here in the East Coast our League has adopted F3K and we get to fly with very good company
Nov 13, 2007, 08:34 PM
Registered User
Hi Chris,

Your comments are all valid. I certainly do not want to get into a discussion about which rules are better. Regardless of which rules you fly (Poway/F3K) there is no doubt in my mind they are both an excellent rules and will produce competitive events where the same set of pilots will end up in the top positions.

You are correct, there are some subtle differences between the two sets of rules, that do require slightly different styles. The rules in the USA might have more emphesis on pure thermaling skills, where as tasks such as the "last flight" and "last two flights" tasks in F3K have a real tactical element.

Quote:
I am taken back by the comment that Poway should cater to F3K. In fact, I really hope they do not.
It definately is not a case of USA vs F3K, indeed everyone is very aware that DLG/F3K would not be where it is now if it were not for the USA. Just about every nation has had to adapt as much as the USA to take on the new offical rules. It is better that we all work on adapting them together. It is very difficult to be able to change the process if you are not part of it.

I guess the big question is does Poway want to remain one of the top 2 international competitions in the world? This will be no problem if it adapts to the F3K rules, but the alternative could mean international competitors will begin to favor other events... move forwards 10 years and no doubt the IHLGF will still be the best competition in the USA, however without adopting the international rules it might be more of a domestic one .

One of the aims of international competitions is to attract as bigger spread of nations competing as possible. Listening to the flow of ideas between the USA and Brazil competitors with their european friends at the German Open really is fantastic. It is these events that enable pilots of all abilities from every nation to learn 10x what they would at any domestic event

I have only every heard positive comments about Poway from the people I know who have visited, the only reason people are suggesting that Poway adopt the F3K rules is because they want Poway to be as big as it can be.

There is a strong chance that in 2009 there will be a World Championships for F3K, currently there are three international competitions that I know of that stand out from the rest, that pilots would want to attend to test themselves against the competition before the WC's take place.... the German Open, Poway and Polecat. The more practice pilots can get at international competitions using the F3K rules the better their chances. Having two of the biggies in the USA will be a big bonus to your pilots at the WC's

Rewind the clock 15 years, and the UK was one of the main countries that promoted and formulated the F3J rules.... except once they became official, we struggled to adopt the rules for our domestic competitions and got left behind. The USA seems in a similar position now, it is one of the world leaders for DLG... if it embraces F3K there is no doubt it will continue to lead, otherwise it risks falling behind.

We have a similar situation in the UK also, with our rule allowing bungee launches in domestic F3K competitions.... for our international we have to drop this as we need to work on an agreed set of rules to make it fair for all.
Last edited by Richard S; Nov 13, 2007 at 08:41 PM.
Nov 13, 2007, 09:50 PM
Registered User
Smack talk. I love it. ;-)

Actually, F3K tasks are old hat at Poway, we've been doing them for years
(at the monthly contests). We've also tried even newer tasks and some
of the locals are currently cooking up some more new tasks. ;-)

So far as the IHLGF, don't panic. We're still quite some time out from any announcement.
Nov 13, 2007, 11:11 PM
Transplant Chey WY from Reno
Thermaln2's Avatar
Hi Richard,

Please don’t take me wrong. What prohibits me from attending more DLG contests, or toehrs, is not the rules what-so-ever. Rather it is the expense of distance traveling as well as the need to have a “quiver” of DLGs. I am isolated being in Reno, Nevada, a good 200+ miles, and a mountain range, from the San Francisco Bay area and the nearest DLG contingent. I flew there 2 weeks ago and it was great.

My glider background stems mainly from the parallels to full size sailplane competitions. These competitions while having speed and distance tasks, are generally left open until the day of the contest and the weather reports. A task is assigned by the CD based on the expected conditions, and the tasks fall within reason of what a pilot has previously flown. Hence for a DLG CD to perhaps set tasks based on the expected conditions of the day, might be a reasonable idea to pursue. Tasks might not have to be published and set in stone, rather they should be flexible.

I expect that another factor for competition is to be able to have several planes for a contest. I imagine it is easier to afford 3 $500 DLG planes versus 3 $2000 F3B planes. Some of us do not have deep pockets, and some of us, like me, like to build and fly our own designs. The lifespan of DLGs in the states is relatively short. On your scene, how long do DLGs last? BTW, let me brush off the sawdust from the plug I am currently working on.

International competition in the US is more like “interstate” competition. This has always been a fun issue between east and west coast flyers. Traveling for one day contests can only be done within a reasonable area.

Mike S, in his previous post, expresses many good points. I think the IHLGF committee wants the contest to remain at the top, and thus is welcome to suggestions. However, being a top contest does not necessarily require it to fly F3K events in their purity. Southern California contests often include many variations.

The need for rules is only required if a common contest set is used for WC competitions and the events leading to it. I guess that may be the resistance that we are seeing in this discussion.

Whatever the Poway committee decides upon, I know it will be more challenging than a simple F3K rules competition.

As it should be, it is a top level contest.

Cheers,

Chris
Nov 13, 2007, 11:23 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaln2
I would like to respond as I have seen HLG from the beginnings and have extreme thoughts both ways.
I'm struggling, attempting to figure out how I should respond to your long post. I do not wish to offend you but I think some of your points are way off base. I think this is largely because you may not be as well versed in recent developments in worlwide DLG activity as you think. I suspect that you are very familiar with early HLG flying and US west coast DLG flying. I have seen you many times on my trips to the IHLGF in Poway. However I've never seen you on the east coast and I've certainly never seen you at a DLG contest in Germany. I also notice that your post count in this group is 15 posts. Your comments in your last post lead me to believe that you have not been following the many discussion threads in this group relating to F3K tasks, F3K rules and Eurotour F3K events. I am quite sure your point of view would be very different if you had followed those discussions. If you attend the German F3K Open next year, I think you will start seeing things in a whole new light. My attendance at three F3K events in Germany has certainly opened my eyes and changed my perception of F3K in many ways.

Quote:
Please remember that F3K rules were developed outside of the US and during a time when DLG launches were non-existent, or perhaps just starting. Additionally, I am unaware of any US submissions to the F3K change policies.
The original version of the F3K rules were developed during the Javeline launch days. The F3K rules that were recently voted in as the official F3K rules were revised and adapted from those earlier rules following a few years of a very active F3K Eurotour schedule. The new, official rules and tasks reflect all of that Eurotour DLG experience and reflect the realities of the DLG launch. The US had just as much chance to submit rules changes to the FAI as every other nation. The US had a vote in the CIAM meeting when those new rules were passed. It was an informed vote that was a result of discussions in this forum and in other places. Terry Edmonds is eager to hear from any US F3K enthusiasts so that he may formulate the US position and submit our vote on any upcoming F3K rules proposals.

Quote:
Overall, I have noticed that US competitions have been quite varied and many tasks are in continual revision.
This is true in my observations also. We tend to be a varied bunch over here in the US. Most of our laws are state and local laws with a minimum of federal laws that are common nationwide. It's the same thing in our hobby interests. We tend to have more local flavor to our DLG events. I think this is a good thing. It's nice if we all follow the same general outlines and the same important rules but I see nothing wrong with minor rule and task variations to suit local tastes.

Quote:
Here in the US, we have flown HLG a lot longer than HLG contests abroad. I recall that Dave Thornburg brought his “Sunbird” over to Europe around 1978/9, and personally, I was flying HLG many years before that time.
Don't get lost in the past. There has been a virtual explosion of DLG development in Europe. You will be blown away when you finally see the top European pilots either in Germany if you go next year or if they should decide to come over here in force.

Quote:
I am taken back by the comment that Poway should cater to F3K. In fact, I really hope they do not.
Richard handled this point well. The IHLGF can stay as it is and be a nice domestic contest or it can adapt to International standards and keep the "I" in IHLGF. It's entirely up to the organizers.

I'll spare you the point by point response regarding tasks. Richard mentioned the concept of "strategic" tasks or tasks that emphasize strategic thinking. If you have not flown the F3K task list then you cannot begin to understand the significance of this concept. When we first began talking, in this group, about the F3K tasks that are flown on the Eurotour, I had no concept at all of what some of those would be like. You need to fly the tasks, preferably in a contest with top Eurotour pilots, before you can really appreciate them and the concept of strategic tasks.

Quote:
How do throw penalties, for example, affect how a pilot flies a round? The “last two flights” F3K tasks are a lot like Poway throw penalties.
From the perspective of a highly competitive pilot, throw penalties are almost never a factor at all. I can only remember one time in all of my Poway contests where I took a throw penalty. The "last two flights" F3K tasks are a completely different animal. I won't try to talk you into believing me. You just need to go fly a big Eurotour event and see for yourself.

Quote:
What is DLG if it is not total time?
People use the term "total time" in two different ways. You are referring to tasks where the task times fill the entire working time. This does indeed add an important element to F3K flying. The new F3K task list includes the 5 X 2 task and the 1,2,3,4 minute max task. These two tasks are commonly flown at major Eurotour F3K events so they have that element covered nicely. It is not necessary to fly those tasks in every round. The strategy tasks cover important elements of flying skill also. Having extra time in the working time beyond the max times adds the requirement to decide when to launch. This can be a very important and difficult strategic decision.

Quote:
I have often heard the comments in the US asking why the F3K rules are so non-challenging and “Mickey Mouse”.
Thankfully, I've never heard that comment. You've never heard that comment from anyone who has flown a Eurotour F3K event.


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