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Nov 11, 2007, 06:20 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudandretti
Are you using your own receiver? If I purchased something like this, I would like to use my DX7.Bud
Bud,

A 72 Mhz Berg receiver is included with the PWB and the composite PWM stream is used by the controller for 6 active channels. You can use a Futaba 6EXP ($160) as the transmitter with a range of aproximately 1500 feet. That is about three times the range that you will probably fly it.

Update edit: Aug 14, 2008. Some have experienced interference problems with the Berg. There is a converter available which will allow operation with the Futaba FASST system. Here is the link:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1748

If you are new to the hobby, my recommendation is to buy the Futaba 6EXP and have a system ready to fly.

Mike
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Aug 14, 2008 at 12:48 PM.
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Nov 11, 2007, 06:54 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Bud,

A 72 Mhz Berg receiver is included with the PWB and the composite PWM stream is used by the controller for 6 active channels. You can use a Futaba 6EXP ($160) as the transmitter with a range of aproximately 1500 feet. That is about three times the range that you will probably fly it.

Some have converted the Futaba 2.4 Ghz FASST 6 channel receiver modules to work with the board but it takes some effort. The DX7 is even more difficult because all six channels have to be combined into a single composite stream. That has also been done by Aurthor P.

My recommendation is to buy the Futaba 6EXP and have a system ready to fly.

Mike
Hi, Mike
I sent an email to Mike Dammar and was also wondering regarding the receiver part of the kit.
The problem is that in Europe 72 mhz is illegal so that the Berg receiver would have to be replaced. Is there no simple way of a "plug and play" system so that a 35mhz (my standard frequency) can be introduced. - I have a six channel Hitec Computer transmitter, myself.

Regards Old man Ted
Nov 11, 2007, 01:42 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Hi, Mike
I sent an email to Mike Dammar and was also wondering regarding the receiver part of the kit.
The problem is that in Europe 72 mhz is illegal so that the Berg receiver would have to be replaced. Is there no simple way of a "plug and play" system so that a 35mhz (my standard frequency) can be introduced. - I have a six channel Hitec Computer transmitter, myself.

Regards Old man Ted
Ted,

I believe it is only a problem if you are trying to convert one of the spread spectrum type receivers. I assume your 35 mhz system is not spread spectrum and it is likely that your receiver has a "standard" composite PPM signal. If so, it may be a simple job to make that one signal connection.

What receiver model number are you using? I will try and search the net for information that might tell us what connections are available on the module.

Mike
Nov 11, 2007, 03:35 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Ted,

I believe it is only a problem if you are trying to convert one of the spread spectrum type receivers. I assume your 35 mhz system is not spread spectrum and it is likely that your receiver has a "standard" composite PPM signal. If so, it may be a simple job to make that one signal connection.

What receiver model number are you using? I will try and search the net for information that might tell us what connections are available on the module.

Mike
Mike.

The receiver I am using is a Chinese made very reasonably priced made by "E-SKY" ie
E-Sky 6 Channel 35Mhz Mini FM Receiver The E-sky receiver is a 6 channel unit which uses Full-Size (STD) Crystals. SPECS: * Type: FM Single conversion * but of course if you do not think this is suitable I am always willing to take advice.
The problem arises of course if I have to dig into the innards of such a device in order to modify it for the board.
I know that the complete board is tied up with the 72 mhz receiver - is this 4 or 6 channel.

Ted
Nov 11, 2007, 04:06 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
There is a "Berg" HP-DSP*4-TSR for 35/36MHz here http://aircraft-japan.com/prod_datasheets/berg_rx4.htm which is Hyperion badged. With any luck it is the same technology as the 72MHz units and you can easily pull the PPM signal out.
Nov 11, 2007, 05:08 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 41south
There is a "Berg" HP-DSP*4-TSR for 35/36MHz here http://aircraft-japan.com/prod_datasheets/berg_rx4.htm which is Hyperion badged. With any luck it is the same technology as the 72MHz units and you can easily pull the PPM signal out.
Good Info, South.

I would bet that it could be easily pulled off that module since the optional shrinkwraped unit looks just like the 72 mhz unit. Dammar modifies the 72 Mhz by connecting the composite PPM signal to a spare connector pin. You might be able to get the 35 Mhz unit modified the same way instead of the 72 Mhz unit. Since you are most interested in minimum technical involvement, let's wait to see if Dammar responds to your email.

Mike
Nov 11, 2007, 09:01 PM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
Old Man Mike,
Your quad copter is great! I'm very excited to find a brushless solution where we don't have to order parts all the way from Germany. I purposed to design a system where I can purchase most everything locally, or at least have shipping arrive to me within a week (usually +3 weeks from Germany). Here's a prototype of a frame I built. It's about 65mm long and weighs about 150 grams. I contacted Dammar, and I hope he'd be willing to sell a PWB to me for experimentation. I find it extremely interesting that you've been able to lift 1 kg payloads with such low current ESC's and motors. I am more of an electricaly guy, but here's the frame I built with a hand drill and RotoZip. So far I just spent $15 in materials!
Nov 12, 2007, 07:05 AM
13brv3's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Here's a prototype of a frame I built. It's about 65mm long and weighs about 150 grams.
Can you give some more info about the tubing used for your frame? Is it CF or aluminum? What's the diameter and wall thickness?

Thanks,
Rusty
Nov 12, 2007, 11:38 AM
Honey,just one more thing
spudandretti's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13brv3
Can you give some more info about the tubing used for your frame? Is it CF or aluminum? What's the diameter and wall thickness?

Thanks,
Rusty
Looks like align tailbooms?
Nov 12, 2007, 03:08 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Old Man Mike,
Your quad copter is great! I'm very excited to find a brushless solution where we don't have to order parts all the way from Germany. I purposed to design a system where I can purchase most everything locally, or at least have shipping arrive to me within a week (usually +3 weeks from Germany). Here's a prototype of a frame I built. It's about 65mm long and weighs about 150 grams. I contacted Dammar, and I hope he'd be willing to sell a PWB to me for experimentation. I find it extremely interesting that you've been able to lift 1 kg payloads with such low current ESC's and motors. I am more of an electricaly guy, but here's the frame I built with a hand drill and RotoZip. So far I just spent $15 in materials!
Thanks!

I assume you meant 650mm. 65mm would be a microcopter. Dammar should be adding the PWB to the Spectrolutions website this week.

I took the Custom 1000mm Quad up to 350 feet which is a new record for me. It is SO stable:

VIDEO - From 350 Feet

After bringing it back down to a low altitude, I played around with some aggressive flying in TI mode:

VIDEO - Aggressive Flying

The Data Chart shows an average of less than 87 watts for the entire 8+ mins of flying. You can see how the current spikes increase during the aggressive flying. The entire flight was made with a single 1320 mAh battery.



Mike
Nov 12, 2007, 06:52 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Great work Mike. I sent Dammar an email last week, haven't heard anything back yet so I'll look forward to seeing details of the main board on the web site soon
Nov 12, 2007, 10:46 PM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
Thanks Old Man Mike...
Yes, I meant 65cm (not 65mm)! Spudandretti is correct, I just used Align 600 tail booms. The tube diameter is about 2.2cm and the wall thickness is about 1mm. For the base I just cut a plastic clipboard into a 12cm x 12cm square. The thickness of the base is 3mm, and I made 5cm cuts into both sides of the tube and slipped it onto the base. I then secured the tubes as pictured and plan to hide my wires inside the tubes.

If eveything goes well, I might try to implement this same design using carbon fiber.

Great news everyone! I received an email from Mike Dammar (http://www.spectrolutions.com/) and he indicated he is working to have a special page at his webstore by the end of this week to allow us to purchase the board!

Thanks Mike for providing our hobby community another quad copter solution!
Last edited by Mikro; Nov 12, 2007 at 11:03 PM.
Nov 12, 2007, 11:00 PM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
One more thing Old Man Mike,
The other quad copter solutions out there use ESC's that communicate with the controller using I2C. The claim is that using PWM would be too slow. Is there any merit to that? I think with PWM, the fastest update rates are at 50Hz. It looks like the ESC's you are using don't talk I2C.

With the Mikrokopter and X-3D-BL they can fly loops and fly with good stability in non-ideal windy situations. My goal is to have a solid platform I could fly with confidence to carry my aerial photgraphy equipment (not necessarily fly in loops). Is it your opinion that this new solution by Dammar is built more for heavy platforms and stable flight versus acrobatics?

Thanks very much for the details (your power/weight/flight-time analysis). I know it takes time to assemble the data and present it in an understandable manner. It is much appreciated!
Nov 13, 2007, 03:21 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
One more thing Old Man Mike,
The other quad copter solutions out there use ESC's that communicate with the controller using I2C. The claim is that using PWM would be too slow. Is there any merit to that? I think with PWM, the fastest update rates are at 50Hz. It looks like the ESC's you are using don't talk I2C.
Mikro,

Performance is dependent on motors, motor spacing, props, ESC, gyros, stabilizing technique, and interface processing. It is a mistake to claim that PWM is too slow for good performance. The design approach used by other quad copter soultions might require I2C, this approach does not.

I did the first brushless conversion of the Draganflyer using a voltage PWM at the ESC power input in combination with the normal servo type PWM. After demonstrating it to Dammar, he became interested in trying it without the voltage PWM at the ESC power input and ended up with a more efficient interface using just the servo PWM input. This is the experimentor's PWB that he will be offering on the Spectrolutions website.

The 1000mm Quad Copter that I built is an evolution based on Dammar's latest board and a lot of discussion with talented people in the RC Universe Draganflyer forum. In particular, Rusty (13brv3) recommended the TP2410-09 outrunner motor. It is amazing how well a design can be evolved when many talented people share ideas. There are certainly advantages to each of the quad copter designs going on now. I believe this 1000mm Quad design is nicely balanced for performance, price and build simplicity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro

With the Mikrokopter and X-3D-BL they can fly loops and fly with good stability in non-ideal windy situations. My goal is to have a solid platform I could fly with confidence to carry my aerial photgraphy equipment (not necessarily fly in loops). Is it your opinion that this new solution by Dammar is built more for heavy platforms and stable flight versus acrobatics?
I'm sure they are very fine designs but my interest is in very stable performance for video and still photography. I also don't want to spend a lot of money to repair the unit if it crashes. With $10 CF tubing, $15 ESCs and $7 motors I know that it won't cost much to repair if something goes wrong.

As for the performance, judge for yourself:

VIDEO Sample (The first half has some post processing, the second half has no post processing)

Of course if you can do smooth video, the still photography is very easy.

By the way, I am confident enough in this platform that I plan to start flying with the 16 ounce $1000 High Def Sony video camera in a few months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Thanks very much for the details (your power/weight/flight-time analysis). I know it takes time to assemble the data and present it in an understandable manner. It is much appreciated!
Thanks for your comments.

Mike
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 13, 2007 at 03:27 AM.
Nov 13, 2007, 07:47 AM
13brv3's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Spudandretti is correct, I just used Align 600 tail booms. The tube diameter is about 2.2cm and the wall thickness is about 1mm.
Thanks for the info on the tubing. I may have to give some of those a try

As for the PWM vs I2C debate, I haven't seen any evidence that I2C speed is needed. I'm working with UAVP's now, and they were originally designed for standard PWM controllers. As the design has evolved, there were changes made to allow I2C ESC's to be used, but I wonder if this wasn't fueled by all the people who insist it's the only way it will work. Still, I think most UAVP's are flying with standard PWM controllers, and I have two flying with the same ESC's that Mike is using.

I'd love to try an I2C version, but I'd be surprised if I could tell the difference. The fact that Dammer is making these new DF boards with standard PWM controllers is further evidence that I2C speed just isn't necessary. I know that Mike is having fantastic results with his current system, and I also know that he's a no compromise sort of guy. If he thought I2C would help, he'd be hacking it himself

Off to work,
Rusty


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