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Nov 06, 2007, 03:18 AM
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Discussion

A New 1000mm Quad Copter Design


I would like to present my 1000mm Quad Copter design based on a newly available $375 Controller PWB. The Controller PWB is a brushless redesign by the designer (Mike Dammar) of the Draganflyer Quad Copter.

The platform with motors and ESCs for the 1000mm Quad Copter shown can be built for approximately $125. The total cost of approximately $500 (plus a little time with a Dremel tool) provides the following:

1) Adjustable motor to motor spacing from 370mm to 995mm. I set it for a 650mm spacing (325mm from prop center to platform center) as shown in the photo which prevents the props from hitting the ground at any angle up to 90 degrees.

2) Weight 18.8 oz without battery. A two min test flying outside with a 30 ounce system (8.1 ounce payload with 3.1 ounce battery) averaged 88 watts.

3) Very resistance to crash damage with the mix of aluminum and two 1000 mm carbon fiber square tubes. Very easy to repair since no holes are drilled in the carbon fiber tubes and aluminum screw clamping is used. No plastic parts to break.

4) Outrunner Motors cost less than $7 with the mounts and have a maximum power rating of over 100 watts. Maximum lift for the 1000mm DF is over 70 ounces. I had no problem flying it inside my 10’ x 10’ room loaded as a 60+ ounce system (that is more than 2 lbs of payload!)

5) Flying is much smoother and more stable than the smaller frame quads I have flown. Note that the controller board includes a Thermal Intelligence module to help keep the unit level. Here’s a little bit of no-hands flying:

VIDEO - Flying No Hands

Here is the parts list:

Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 (new release: $399) ([email protected])

Qty 4 TP2410-09 Brushless Outrunner with mount - $26
Qty 4 HW_P10A 10 Amp ESC - $58
Qty 2 8mm Carbon Fiber Square Tubing - $19
Qty 2 EPP1045 10x4.5 Props (Set of 2 counter rotating) - $8
Qty 4 MPI ACC363 3.00 mm Prop Saver - $2
Misc Alum sheet (.025” & .050”), 4-40 screws/nuts, Alum 1” square tubing, Velcro - $12

Total = $ 500

The pictures below should give you a rough idea of how it is constructed. I also included a power chart which might be a little difficult to read with the two axis. Note that one of the data points is a 9 minute flight with a 1320 mAh battery carrying a 8 ounce payload including my Panasonic Video/Still camera and foam mount (30 ounce flying weight).

Mike









Alternative mounting approach for the "Gold" version of the -09 motor:






Here is an index to this thread showing more details:

Building and Flying the Kquad

OMM Quad Rev2
Chapter 1 - Overview & Baseplate https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2116
CF Carbon Fiber Stengthening Options - https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2211
Chapter 2 - PWB Mount & Roll Cage https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2296
Chapter 3 - PWB Modifications https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3181


Common Problems & Solutions
Antenna hitting Metal Roll Cage: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1933
TI Sensors Visibility Obscured: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1813
Aluminum Stand-offs Shorting PWB: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1610
Checking TI Performance:https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3777

Camera Mount
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...9&postcount=13
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...8&postcount=80
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...68115&page=197

PWB Details
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...2&postcount=59
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=353
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1699 (Rev 2 reveiw)

Optional Gyro Sensitivity Adjustment
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1550
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1557

Berg Receiver Details
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...9&postcount=70

Props Installation and Motor Mounting Notes
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1626
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1456
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1270

Motor/ESC Wiring
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...5&postcount=89
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=343
http://www.spectrolutions.com/brushless_proto.htm
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=582
Brashley's Motor charts: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2309
Rusty's Motor/Prop charts: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2365

Transmitter Controls Setup
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=103

Throttle Calibration
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3631

Flying Checklist
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6868113/tm.htm

High Altitude Flight Videos
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1531
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2131

FPV (Flying by Video Goggles)
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1112
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1332
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1681
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1891
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2131
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2236
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2926
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3256
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3468
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3557


Payload Weight vs Battery Fly Time
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=424


Parts Suppliers

Controller PWB
http://www.spectrolutions.com/brushless_proto.htm

Complete Frame Kits
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1261
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3691

Props
http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-29a.html
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=358
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=359

Motors
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=5111
http://www.nitroplanes.com/24oubrmo.html
http://www.quadroufo.com/product_inf...2aac95edf731e8

ESCs
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=4204

Carbon Fiber 8mm Square Tubing
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/carbonfiber.htm

Aluminum Sheet
https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchan...p=2&top_cat=60

Aluminum Screws/Nuts
http://www.fastener-express.com/inde...S&Category=218

Optional FPV components
http://www.rangevideo.com/
http://www.hyperlinktech.com/category.aspx?id=71 (Antennas)

Variations of the Kquad Design

Kocto Quad (8 motors)
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=362
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=406

Alternate 2409-18 Motors with 12A Pulsar ESCs
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=296

Alternate Props
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=149

Mod for 2.4Ghz FASST
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=804
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=844
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1748 OMM Rx Converter Rev1
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3316 Modification for Channel 6 & 7 outputs
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3633 OMM Rx Converter Rev2
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3810 Rusty's OMM Rx Converter Sales

FPV Configuration
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1112

Alternate Hitec Receiver
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=163

Audio supplement to Green LEDs
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=198

I3brv3 (Rusty) TREX boom frame
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=206

Mikro Quad
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=104

Tedrobphoto Quad
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=150

Johntee Quad
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=226

Black Dragan Quad
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=610

Sammy B Quad
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=637

MitMit Quad
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1707 (with camera gimbal)

Flyboy_001 Quad
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=4698
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 24, 2009 at 03:08 PM.
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Nov 08, 2007, 05:48 AM
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Old Man Mike's Avatar
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I'm not sure there is much interest but here is a video showing the new 1000mm Quad carrying a video/still camera payload and the resulting video from 120 feet:

Flying Quad VIDEO

And here is a sample still shot:



Mike
Nov 08, 2007, 06:19 AM
Honey,just one more thing
spudandretti's Avatar
OK, more info. Looked on there site and didn't see it.Bud
Nov 08, 2007, 07:15 AM
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Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Bud,

I assume you are asking about the special Brushless PWB I used:

Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 ([email protected])

Dammar does not list this board on his Spectrolutions website. It is something special that he is making available to experimenters who wish to build a custom quad copter (if there is enough interest). You have to email him for details.

Mike
Nov 08, 2007, 07:45 AM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi Mike,

This PWB is interesting. Could you share a little on how it works ? What sort of trimming / adjustment needed ? How is it connected to the system of motors, escs, batteries etc. Thanks.

Regards,
Joe Ling
Nov 08, 2007, 08:40 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Bud,

I assume you are asking about the special Brushless PWB I used:

Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 ([email protected])

Dammar does not list this board on his Spectrolutions website. It is something special that he is making available to experimenters who wish to build a custom quad copter (if there is enough interest). You have to email him for details.

Mike
Hello, Old man Mike from Old man Ted in the UK
All I have ever wanted has been such a machine as you so vividly demonstrate.
As you know there are many machines of a similar nature "doing the rounds" and I have a kit for such a machine ie the XUFO german designed quadrocopter complete with the latest X*ACC module which apparently will improve stability when I finally persuade my colleague to finish off the kit.
You have bought this module from Mike Dammar, made the frame with the motors but WHAT THEN IS REQUIRED! as the machine I have has to be programmed with the required firmware and software. Have you yourself had to work out the program for the machine; also how did you come across this module and what information have you obtained from Mike Dammar?
How stable is the machine and how resistant to mild wind?
Also can the board take more current than you are presently using so that more powerful motors can be used with larger props and a consequent increase in payload.

All in all however, a fantastic machine!

Best Wishes and kind regards Ted Robinson Cheshire UK
Nov 08, 2007, 04:21 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Hi Old Man Mike,

Excellent looking QC. Any more information you have will be gladly accepted.

I'm currently building the UAVP (www.lipoly.com), but would be very interested in a second machine such as this.

Cheers
Colin.
Nov 08, 2007, 06:18 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Hello, Old man Mike from Old man Ted in the UK
All I have ever wanted has been such a machine as you so vividly demonstrate. ........

You have bought this module from Mike Dammar, made the frame with the motors but WHAT THEN IS REQUIRED! as the machine I have has to be programmed with the required firmware and software. Have you yourself had to work out the program for the machine; also how did you come across this module and what information have you obtained from Mike Dammar?
Thanks, Old Man Ted!

I'll try to answer your questions without getting too verbose:

There is nothing more to program or change with the PWB. You just plug in the servo connectors directly from the ESCs into the PWB. You need to solder the three wires from the brushless motors to the three wires of the ESCs and that is it.

Since I was the first person to convert the Draganflyer to a brushless design, Dammar allowed me to test and help refine the gyro settings. I asked him to consider selling just the PWB so that experimenters could build their own without having to get involved with the programming and electronics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
How stable is the machine and how resistant to mild wind?
Also can the board take more current than you are presently using so that more powerful motors can be used with larger props and a consequent increase in payload.

All in all however, a fantastic machine!

Best Wishes and kind regards Ted Robinson Cheshire UK
I have flown it 15 mph wind but it is not so pleasant and certainly not suitable for video during gusty wind. The Thermal Intellegence mode is quite good and will keep the unit level with no hands flying for up to 30 seconds once you have things trimmed. It is very helpful for maintaining level flight when you get above 200 feet since it is hard to see that high up.

With the camera payload flying as shown in my posted video, the total current averages just under 9 amps (2.2 amps per motor). Considering that these motors have a max current rating of over 13 amps, you see that there is a LOT of margin. I have flown with these motors carrying more than a 2 lb payload which averaged 22 amps (5.5 amps per motor). But I would recommend keeping the payload around 1 lb or less just so there is a good margin in throttle control. Since my camera and mount is less than an 8 ounce payload, I have plenty of margin. I look forward to soon flying a High Def camcorder which weighs 1 lb.

I don't know of any real limit with the PWB for even higher power motors since the motors/ESC connect directly to the battery.

Thanks again for you comments.

Mike
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 08, 2007 at 06:32 PM.
Nov 08, 2007, 06:23 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by 41south
Hi Old Man Mike,

Excellent looking QC. Any more information you have will be gladly accepted.

I'm currently building the UAVP (www.lipoly.com), but would be very interested in a second machine such as this.

Cheers
Colin.
Hi Colin,

Thanks. I hope my previous posts provided more info. I will try to show some additional details on the frame design if people are interested.

And the UAVP is also quite interesting to me since I have an engineering background and enjoy digging deeper into the design. I have two UAVP boards on order so that I can play with them in my 1000 quad frame and using the same ESC/Motor combination. I really do not understand why people are using such expensive ESCs and Motors when the low cost units seem to work so well.

Mike
Nov 08, 2007, 06:30 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Thanks Mike,

I would certainly be interested in seeing more of your frame design.

OT:
I see that you appear to be fairly serious ham radio operator as well, by the looks of the antenna in the back yard. I've just got back into it after many years of being off air.

73's
Colin
ZL2ARL
Nov 08, 2007, 10:58 PM
Registered User
Thanks for showing such detailed and close up photos of your frame. I was wondering how one would mount a TowerPro motor and you gave me the answer!

In one of your videos it looks like you have some sort of foam mounted on each arm and underneath the frame. Could you provide some photos and more information about what you are using and how it is mounted?

I'd also be interested in more information about how you built the little cage around the electronics in the center of the frame.

Also, I'm curious about what other sensors the PWB uses. What type of gyros does it use? Are they the ADXRS300's like the UAVP, MLX90609's, or something else?
Nov 09, 2007, 06:59 AM
Registered User

Thanks for the detailed reply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Thanks, Old Man Ted!

I'll try to answer your questions without getting too verbose:

There is nothing more to program or change with the PWB. You just plug in the servo connectors directly from the ESCs into the PWB. You need to solder the three wires from the brushless motors to the three wires of the ESCs and that is it.

Since I was the first person to convert the Draganflyer to a brushless design, Dammar allowed me to test and help refine the gyro settings. I asked him to consider selling just the PWB so that experimenters could build their own without having to get involved with the programming and electronics.



I have flown it 15 mph wind but it is not so pleasant and certainly not suitable for video during gusty wind. The Thermal Intellegence mode is quite good and will keep the unit level with no hands flying for up to 30 seconds once you have things trimmed. It is very helpful for maintaining level flight when you get above 200 feet since it is hard to see that high up.

With the camera payload flying as shown in my posted video, the total current averages just under 9 amps (2.2 amps per motor). Considering that these motors have a max current rating of over 13 amps, you see that there is a LOT of margin. I have flown with these motors carrying more than a 2 lb payload which averaged 22 amps (5.5 amps per motor). But I would recommend keeping the payload around 1 lb or less just so there is a good margin in throttle control. Since my camera and mount is less than an 8 ounce payload, I have plenty of margin. I look forward to soon flying a High Def camcorder which weighs 1 lb.

I don't know of any real limit with the PWB for even higher power motors since the motors/ESC connect directly to the battery.

Thanks again for you comments.

Mike
Thanks, Mike for the detailed reply and (I think some encouragement)
Yes, it is the programming side which terrifies me! and if that is taken care of it certainly does give me food for thought.
The machine (kit) I have bought at present ( which incidentally must have cost some $1000 plus) and am trying to persuade my colleague to build after which I have to load the programs via downloads is the XUFO quadrocopter developed by the German guys. The base is much smaller than the one you suggest and I do understand that bigger is better as far as stability is concerned.

Anyway, thanks again for a very interesting insight

Best Wishes and Regards

Ted
Nov 10, 2007, 03:02 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magellan
Thanks for showing such detailed and close up photos of your frame. I was wondering how one would mount a TowerPro motor and you gave me the answer!

In one of your videos it looks like you have some sort of foam mounted on each arm and underneath the frame. Could you provide some photos and more information about what you are using and how it is mounted?

I'd also be interested in more information about how you built the little cage around the electronics in the center of the frame.

Also, I'm curious about what other sensors the PWB uses. What type of gyros does it use? Are they the ADXRS300's like the UAVP, MLX90609's, or something else?
Hi Magellan,

The bumpers and camera mount are made from a kid's foam stick used to play in a pool. They sell it in 6 foot lengths for a few dollars. I use soft stretch elastic (used in clothes) tied to nylon washers which slide over the aluminum tubing. The mount is then suspended just below the Quad to reduce any vibrations from the motors. The pictures show provide enough detail on how it is used. During the early development period, I had several crashes from 100 feet and higher without damage to the camera.









The RollCage is made from 0.025 inch aluminum sheet cut into two strips 0.7" wide. The strips are bent to shape and secured with 4 screws and a center screw. Not much to it but it does an excellent job protecting the PWB and still allowing the TI sensors a clear view.

The Gyros are labeled as ENCO5EA9 but I have no details.

Mike
Nov 10, 2007, 08:04 AM
Honey,just one more thing
spudandretti's Avatar
Are you using your own receiver? If I purchased something like this, I would like to use my DX7.Bud
Nov 10, 2007, 06:45 PM
Registered User
Hi Mike,

Thank you for the detailed reply!

I like the innovative use of the foam sticks and elastics. I'll have to consider using something like that to shield a camera when I get one in the air. It sounds like it provides plenty of cushioning should a fall occur!
Nov 11, 2007, 07:20 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudandretti
Are you using your own receiver? If I purchased something like this, I would like to use my DX7.Bud
Bud,

A 72 Mhz Berg receiver is included with the PWB and the composite PWM stream is used by the controller for 6 active channels. You can use a Futaba 6EXP ($160) as the transmitter with a range of aproximately 1500 feet. That is about three times the range that you will probably fly it.

Update edit: Aug 14, 2008. Some have experienced interference problems with the Berg. There is a converter available which will allow operation with the Futaba FASST system. Here is the link:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1748

If you are new to the hobby, my recommendation is to buy the Futaba 6EXP and have a system ready to fly.

Mike
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Aug 14, 2008 at 12:48 PM.
Nov 11, 2007, 07:54 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Bud,

A 72 Mhz Berg receiver is included with the PWB and the composite PWM stream is used by the controller for 6 active channels. You can use a Futaba 6EXP ($160) as the transmitter with a range of aproximately 1500 feet. That is about three times the range that you will probably fly it.

Some have converted the Futaba 2.4 Ghz FASST 6 channel receiver modules to work with the board but it takes some effort. The DX7 is even more difficult because all six channels have to be combined into a single composite stream. That has also been done by Aurthor P.

My recommendation is to buy the Futaba 6EXP and have a system ready to fly.

Mike
Hi, Mike
I sent an email to Mike Dammar and was also wondering regarding the receiver part of the kit.
The problem is that in Europe 72 mhz is illegal so that the Berg receiver would have to be replaced. Is there no simple way of a "plug and play" system so that a 35mhz (my standard frequency) can be introduced. - I have a six channel Hitec Computer transmitter, myself.

Regards Old man Ted
Nov 11, 2007, 02:42 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Hi, Mike
I sent an email to Mike Dammar and was also wondering regarding the receiver part of the kit.
The problem is that in Europe 72 mhz is illegal so that the Berg receiver would have to be replaced. Is there no simple way of a "plug and play" system so that a 35mhz (my standard frequency) can be introduced. - I have a six channel Hitec Computer transmitter, myself.

Regards Old man Ted
Ted,

I believe it is only a problem if you are trying to convert one of the spread spectrum type receivers. I assume your 35 mhz system is not spread spectrum and it is likely that your receiver has a "standard" composite PPM signal. If so, it may be a simple job to make that one signal connection.

What receiver model number are you using? I will try and search the net for information that might tell us what connections are available on the module.

Mike
Nov 11, 2007, 04:35 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Ted,

I believe it is only a problem if you are trying to convert one of the spread spectrum type receivers. I assume your 35 mhz system is not spread spectrum and it is likely that your receiver has a "standard" composite PPM signal. If so, it may be a simple job to make that one signal connection.

What receiver model number are you using? I will try and search the net for information that might tell us what connections are available on the module.

Mike
Mike.

The receiver I am using is a Chinese made very reasonably priced made by "E-SKY" ie
E-Sky 6 Channel 35Mhz Mini FM Receiver The E-sky receiver is a 6 channel unit which uses Full-Size (STD) Crystals. SPECS: * Type: FM Single conversion * but of course if you do not think this is suitable I am always willing to take advice.
The problem arises of course if I have to dig into the innards of such a device in order to modify it for the board.
I know that the complete board is tied up with the 72 mhz receiver - is this 4 or 6 channel.

Ted
Nov 11, 2007, 05:06 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
There is a "Berg" HP-DSP*4-TSR for 35/36MHz here http://aircraft-japan.com/prod_datasheets/berg_rx4.htm which is Hyperion badged. With any luck it is the same technology as the 72MHz units and you can easily pull the PPM signal out.
Nov 11, 2007, 06:08 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by 41south
There is a "Berg" HP-DSP*4-TSR for 35/36MHz here http://aircraft-japan.com/prod_datasheets/berg_rx4.htm which is Hyperion badged. With any luck it is the same technology as the 72MHz units and you can easily pull the PPM signal out.
Good Info, South.

I would bet that it could be easily pulled off that module since the optional shrinkwraped unit looks just like the 72 mhz unit. Dammar modifies the 72 Mhz by connecting the composite PPM signal to a spare connector pin. You might be able to get the 35 Mhz unit modified the same way instead of the 72 Mhz unit. Since you are most interested in minimum technical involvement, let's wait to see if Dammar responds to your email.

Mike
Nov 11, 2007, 10:01 PM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
Old Man Mike,
Your quad copter is great! I'm very excited to find a brushless solution where we don't have to order parts all the way from Germany. I purposed to design a system where I can purchase most everything locally, or at least have shipping arrive to me within a week (usually +3 weeks from Germany). Here's a prototype of a frame I built. It's about 65mm long and weighs about 150 grams. I contacted Dammar, and I hope he'd be willing to sell a PWB to me for experimentation. I find it extremely interesting that you've been able to lift 1 kg payloads with such low current ESC's and motors. I am more of an electricaly guy, but here's the frame I built with a hand drill and RotoZip. So far I just spent $15 in materials!
Nov 12, 2007, 08:05 AM
13brv3's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Here's a prototype of a frame I built. It's about 65mm long and weighs about 150 grams.
Can you give some more info about the tubing used for your frame? Is it CF or aluminum? What's the diameter and wall thickness?

Thanks,
Rusty
Nov 12, 2007, 12:38 PM
Honey,just one more thing
spudandretti's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13brv3
Can you give some more info about the tubing used for your frame? Is it CF or aluminum? What's the diameter and wall thickness?

Thanks,
Rusty
Looks like align tailbooms?
Nov 12, 2007, 04:08 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Old Man Mike,
Your quad copter is great! I'm very excited to find a brushless solution where we don't have to order parts all the way from Germany. I purposed to design a system where I can purchase most everything locally, or at least have shipping arrive to me within a week (usually +3 weeks from Germany). Here's a prototype of a frame I built. It's about 65mm long and weighs about 150 grams. I contacted Dammar, and I hope he'd be willing to sell a PWB to me for experimentation. I find it extremely interesting that you've been able to lift 1 kg payloads with such low current ESC's and motors. I am more of an electricaly guy, but here's the frame I built with a hand drill and RotoZip. So far I just spent $15 in materials!
Thanks!

I assume you meant 650mm. 65mm would be a microcopter. Dammar should be adding the PWB to the Spectrolutions website this week.

I took the Custom 1000mm Quad up to 350 feet which is a new record for me. It is SO stable:

VIDEO - From 350 Feet

After bringing it back down to a low altitude, I played around with some aggressive flying in TI mode:

VIDEO - Aggressive Flying

The Data Chart shows an average of less than 87 watts for the entire 8+ mins of flying. You can see how the current spikes increase during the aggressive flying. The entire flight was made with a single 1320 mAh battery.



Mike
Nov 12, 2007, 07:52 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Great work Mike. I sent Dammar an email last week, haven't heard anything back yet so I'll look forward to seeing details of the main board on the web site soon
Nov 12, 2007, 11:46 PM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
Thanks Old Man Mike...
Yes, I meant 65cm (not 65mm)! Spudandretti is correct, I just used Align 600 tail booms. The tube diameter is about 2.2cm and the wall thickness is about 1mm. For the base I just cut a plastic clipboard into a 12cm x 12cm square. The thickness of the base is 3mm, and I made 5cm cuts into both sides of the tube and slipped it onto the base. I then secured the tubes as pictured and plan to hide my wires inside the tubes.

If eveything goes well, I might try to implement this same design using carbon fiber.

Great news everyone! I received an email from Mike Dammar (http://www.spectrolutions.com/) and he indicated he is working to have a special page at his webstore by the end of this week to allow us to purchase the board!

Thanks Mike for providing our hobby community another quad copter solution!
Last edited by Mikro; Nov 13, 2007 at 12:03 AM.
Nov 13, 2007, 12:00 AM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
One more thing Old Man Mike,
The other quad copter solutions out there use ESC's that communicate with the controller using I2C. The claim is that using PWM would be too slow. Is there any merit to that? I think with PWM, the fastest update rates are at 50Hz. It looks like the ESC's you are using don't talk I2C.

With the Mikrokopter and X-3D-BL they can fly loops and fly with good stability in non-ideal windy situations. My goal is to have a solid platform I could fly with confidence to carry my aerial photgraphy equipment (not necessarily fly in loops). Is it your opinion that this new solution by Dammar is built more for heavy platforms and stable flight versus acrobatics?

Thanks very much for the details (your power/weight/flight-time analysis). I know it takes time to assemble the data and present it in an understandable manner. It is much appreciated!
Nov 13, 2007, 04:21 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
One more thing Old Man Mike,
The other quad copter solutions out there use ESC's that communicate with the controller using I2C. The claim is that using PWM would be too slow. Is there any merit to that? I think with PWM, the fastest update rates are at 50Hz. It looks like the ESC's you are using don't talk I2C.
Mikro,

Performance is dependent on motors, motor spacing, props, ESC, gyros, stabilizing technique, and interface processing. It is a mistake to claim that PWM is too slow for good performance. The design approach used by other quad copter soultions might require I2C, this approach does not.

I did the first brushless conversion of the Draganflyer using a voltage PWM at the ESC power input in combination with the normal servo type PWM. After demonstrating it to Dammar, he became interested in trying it without the voltage PWM at the ESC power input and ended up with a more efficient interface using just the servo PWM input. This is the experimentor's PWB that he will be offering on the Spectrolutions website.

The 1000mm Quad Copter that I built is an evolution based on Dammar's latest board and a lot of discussion with talented people in the RC Universe Draganflyer forum. In particular, Rusty (13brv3) recommended the TP2410-09 outrunner motor. It is amazing how well a design can be evolved when many talented people share ideas. There are certainly advantages to each of the quad copter designs going on now. I believe this 1000mm Quad design is nicely balanced for performance, price and build simplicity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro

With the Mikrokopter and X-3D-BL they can fly loops and fly with good stability in non-ideal windy situations. My goal is to have a solid platform I could fly with confidence to carry my aerial photgraphy equipment (not necessarily fly in loops). Is it your opinion that this new solution by Dammar is built more for heavy platforms and stable flight versus acrobatics?
I'm sure they are very fine designs but my interest is in very stable performance for video and still photography. I also don't want to spend a lot of money to repair the unit if it crashes. With $10 CF tubing, $15 ESCs and $7 motors I know that it won't cost much to repair if something goes wrong.

As for the performance, judge for yourself:

VIDEO Sample (The first half has some post processing, the second half has no post processing)

Of course if you can do smooth video, the still photography is very easy.

By the way, I am confident enough in this platform that I plan to start flying with the 16 ounce $1000 High Def Sony video camera in a few months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Thanks very much for the details (your power/weight/flight-time analysis). I know it takes time to assemble the data and present it in an understandable manner. It is much appreciated!
Thanks for your comments.

Mike
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 13, 2007 at 04:27 AM.
Nov 13, 2007, 08:47 AM
13brv3's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Spudandretti is correct, I just used Align 600 tail booms. The tube diameter is about 2.2cm and the wall thickness is about 1mm.
Thanks for the info on the tubing. I may have to give some of those a try

As for the PWM vs I2C debate, I haven't seen any evidence that I2C speed is needed. I'm working with UAVP's now, and they were originally designed for standard PWM controllers. As the design has evolved, there were changes made to allow I2C ESC's to be used, but I wonder if this wasn't fueled by all the people who insist it's the only way it will work. Still, I think most UAVP's are flying with standard PWM controllers, and I have two flying with the same ESC's that Mike is using.

I'd love to try an I2C version, but I'd be surprised if I could tell the difference. The fact that Dammer is making these new DF boards with standard PWM controllers is further evidence that I2C speed just isn't necessary. I know that Mike is having fantastic results with his current system, and I also know that he's a no compromise sort of guy. If he thought I2C would help, he'd be hacking it himself

Off to work,
Rusty
Nov 13, 2007, 02:40 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
That's it - I want one

And I haven't even finished my UAVP build yet
Nov 13, 2007, 10:52 PM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi,

Thanks to Mike for the great info & demonstration. I emailed Mike @ Spectrosolution a couple of days ago for a unit of the PWB but so far did not get any response from him. anyone else have better luck ?

Regards,
Joe Ling
Malaysia
Nov 13, 2007, 10:56 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Dammar now has a special webpage for the PWB used in the 1000mm Custom Quad copter:

Brushless Controller Board

You will want to select the large diameter frame if you want to build the same size as the one discussed in this thread (approximately 330 mm from the center). The small frame is for motors spaced approximately 230 mm from the center.

Mike
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 14, 2007 at 12:00 AM.
Nov 14, 2007, 01:10 AM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi Mike,

Thanks for your advice. I have just made a pre-order for 1 unit of the PWB but I guess USD5.00 shipping to Malaysia won't be enough. I will have to contact Mike @ spectrosolutions for some additional shipping costs. I have a mikrokopter-like frame lying around. I think I will try to use that :



These are 270mm from the center though.

I will probably use these motors from himodel. They are 1000K/V types for USD15 a piece :




When using 9X5 3 bladed props from GWS, I get this sort of peformance. The all in weight for the model used in this test i around 1.2kg. The flight consisted of mostly hovering around :



I have some spare esc from failed experiments :



So, hopefully, when the PWB arrivs, I can make something work. Thanks again to Mike for your help.

Regards,
Joe Ling
Nov 14, 2007, 02:09 AM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Mike,

Do I understand correctly that we must use the specified ESC and motors?

Thanks
Colin.
Nov 14, 2007, 02:26 AM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
Mike,
When designing our frames, do we need to make any special accomodations to take advantage of the TI feature? I want to design some type of protection for the electronics, but am not sure if there are material type limitations that would interfere with the TI.
Nov 14, 2007, 02:53 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeling
Hi Mike,

Thanks for your advice. I have just made a pre-order for 1 unit of the PWB but I guess USD5.00 shipping to Malaysia won't be enough. I will have to contact Mike @ spectrosolutions for some additional shipping costs. I have a mikrokopter-like frame lying around. I think I will try to use that :

These are 270mm from the center though.

I will probably use these motors from himodel. They are 1000K/V types for USD15 a piece :


When using 9X5 3 bladed props from GWS, I get this sort of peformance. The all in weight for the model used in this test i around 1.2kg. The flight consisted of mostly hovering around :

I have some spare esc from failed experiments :
So, hopefully, when the PWB arrivs, I can make something work. Thanks again to Mike for your help.

Regards,
Joe Ling
Excellent work, Joe!

Your hovering power appears to be around 145 watts for the 42 ounces which is about the same I am getting when testing at that weight (as shown on my power chart). That is quite impressive with a three blade prop. It appears you must have an almost perfect match with the 1000 kv motor. It would be helpful if you could also plot watts on the chart since it is easier to compare systems.

I've seen pictures of that frame and have always admired the construction. It is really a work of art. I assume you ordered the small frame PWB.

Mike
Nov 14, 2007, 02:59 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by 41south
Mike,

Do I understand correctly that we must use the specified ESC and motors?

Thanks
Colin.
I've tested several different motors and ESCs and they have all worked. That does not mean that all ESCs and motors will work. The ones I listed are very low cost and have excellent performance but you can certainly try what you have. Just remember that this is an experimenter's board and using different motors and ESCs would certainly be experimental. Of course, that is the fun of experimenting, eh?

Mike
Nov 14, 2007, 03:03 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Mike,
When designing our frames, do we need to make any special accomodations to take advantage of the TI feature? I want to design some type of protection for the electronics, but am not sure if there are material type limitations that would interfere with the TI.
Yes, you must allow the 4 sensors on the top PWB to have a good view. For example, the small aluminum roll cage I use nicely allows a clear view between the straps.

You should be able to use any material as long as the sensors can see past them.

Mike
Nov 14, 2007, 04:35 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Yes, you must allow the 4 sensors on the top PWB to have a good view. For example, the small aluminum roll cage I use nicely allows a clear view between the straps.

You should be able to use any material as long as the sensors can see past them.

Mike
Hi, again Mike from that persistent (Old Ted) in UK

One of the questions I had was already answered ie the choice of brushless motors and escs but the other problem with the radio which I thought I had overcome by obtaining a 72 mhz transmitter has now confused me because on Mike Dammars site he states that a 6 channel transitter is required to alter the infra red gain or similar and the 72 mhz transmitter I obtained is only 4 channel.
Is it absolutely necessary or would you recommend me trying to change the 72 mhz receiver to 35 mhz and use my 6 channel transmitter?

Ted
Nov 14, 2007, 05:27 AM
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Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Hi, again Mike from that persistent (Old Ted) in UK

One of the questions I had was already answered ie the choice of brushless motors and escs but the other problem with the radio which I thought I had overcome by obtaining a 72 mhz transmitter has now confused me because on Mike Dammars site he states that a 6 channel transitter is required to alter the infra red gain or similar and the 72 mhz transmitter I obtained is only 4 channel.
Is it absolutely necessary or would you recommend me trying to change the 72 mhz receiver to 35 mhz and use my 6 channel transmitter?

Ted
Ted,

Yes, you need to have 6 channels. The first four are the normal ones you need to fly. The 5th channel turns the TI function on or off. The 6th channel is used to set the TI gain (you need to be able to set it to a little below midpoint). If you already have a 6 channel transmitter for 35 mhz, I would certainly investigate if you can do the simple modification to the receiver to bring out the composite PWM signals. The other option is to spend the $160 for the Futaba Transmitter.

And note that it is best to have an analog knob on the transmitter to adjust the channel 6 setting. Although you could probably program other 6 channel, 72 mhz transmitters to put out a specific setting, it is much better to be able to turn the knob for most stable TI performance.

Mike


Mike
Nov 14, 2007, 06:24 AM
Honey,just one more thing
spudandretti's Avatar
What are you getting differently when ordering the unit with the different frame sizes? The props? If so, are those the ones that are used? Bud
Nov 14, 2007, 01:34 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Quote:
I've tested several different motors and ESCs and they have all worked. That does not mean that all ESCs and motors will work. The ones I listed are very low cost and have excellent performance but you can certainly try what you have. Just remember that this is an experimenter's board and using different motors and ESCs would certainly be experimental. Of course, that is the fun of experimenting, eh?

Thanks for that Mike, it seems contrary to what Dammar says on his web site

Quote:
It will not work with standard motors, nor will it run servos.
and
Quote:
It will ONLY work with the described speed controllers, motors, and frame size.
I guess by standard motors he means brushed?

It looks like a list of tried (and confirmed as either a go or no go) ESC's, and maybe motors too, would be good.

Colin.
Last edited by 41south; Nov 14, 2007 at 01:50 PM.
Nov 14, 2007, 02:03 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Can I also ask - how critical is the motor spacing for the "larger" frame. My UAVP frame is 530mm from one motor center to another motor center. I think it would be pretty easy to add in some extensions if required. I will maybe order a second one to play with this design

Thanks again
Colin.
Nov 14, 2007, 02:13 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Ted,

Yes, you need to have 6 channels. The first four are the normal ones you need to fly. The 5th channel turns the TI function on or off. The 6th channel is used to set the TI gain (you need to be able to set it to a little below midpoint). If you already have a 6 channel transmitter for 35 mhz, I would certainly investigate if you can do the simple modification to the receiver to bring out the composite PWM signals. The other option is to spend the $160 for the Futaba Transmitter.

And note that it is best to have an analog knob on the transmitter to adjust the channel 6 setting. Although you could probably program other 6 channel, 72 mhz transmitters to put out a specific setting, it is much better to be able to turn the knob for most stable TI performance.

Mike


Mike
Hi, Mike
Thanks for the explanation - I understand the technicalities and the reason for the 6 channels.
The Hitec transmitter when delved into the computer part on channel 6 has provision for altering the output from 0 - 100% so that seems OK - it's just finding out how to get a "PWM"? signal from the 35mhz receiver in question so that the 72 mhz receiver can be replaced. As aside it seems as though all of a sudden I have come "full circle" as it were because when the machine kit (XUFO) I bought from the German guys came out it was (and at present STILL IS!) only available using a German 35 mhz ACT receiver and the guys from USA have had to replace these with 72 mhz Berg receivers!
What a crazy world we live in!
Ted
Nov 14, 2007, 04:58 PM
Registered User
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Thread OP
Wow, lots of questions. Let me try to answer most with a simplified post:

41South - All those quotes you made from Dammar's website was in reference to the specific conversion of the Draganflyer. Using that small frame and existing gearing was a real challenge and if people want to do that conversion, then they should stick with the Motors and ESCs in my original documentation:

Original Draganflyer Brushless Conversion Documentation

Note that my first conversion before the availability of the brushless PWB was much more complicated but as you can see from the documetation, I tried to show all the details necessary for others to do the conversion. Many did and most shared their experiences so that everyone could benefit.

I hope to follow the same process with the 1000mm Quad Copter. I receive no financial benefits from any of this and am doing it only because I enjoy sharing design ideas and seeing the creative result of group interaction.

One last question for Colin: What is the motor spacing from the CENTER of the Quad? I find that motor to motor spacing can be confusing since you can measure to the opposite motor or adjacent motor. Let's keet the reference to the center.

Spudandretti - The free props included with the Dammar brushless PWB are for the original Draganflyer and will likely be of no use to anyone reading this thread.

tedrobphoto - I understand your frustration with the 35 Mhz requirement in the UK. It sounds like your 35 Mhz transmitter will work just fine if we can just tap the one required signal from the 35 Mhz receiver. If you can find someone close by that has an oscilloscope and knowledge about what the composite PWM signal looks like, you would probably be in business. Maybe someone reading this thread will have the answer.

Mike
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 15, 2007 at 12:51 AM.
Nov 14, 2007, 05:29 PM
Honey,just one more thing
spudandretti's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Spudandretti - The free props included with the Dammar brushless PWB are for the original Draganflyer and will likely be of no use to anyone reading this thread.Mike
What are you getting differently when ordering the unit with the different frame sizes then? Configuration of the board?Bud
Nov 14, 2007, 05:53 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudandretti
What are you getting differently when ordering the unit with the different frame sizes then? Configuration of the board?Bud
Only the sensitivity setting for the Gyros is different. The larger frame platforms need higher loop gain than the small frame platforms. I pushed Dammar hard to provide a large frame option since I believe they are much more stable for aerial photography.

Mike
Nov 15, 2007, 12:32 AM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Hi Mike,

Thanks for your answers, I know we are all bombarding you with questions and I for one really appreciate your time (and patience ) in answering them.

My frame is the same as the one pictured on the previous page of the thread and measures about 270mm from frame center to motor center. I understand that 330mm is more optimum for the "large" frame PWB? It is pretty easy to put some small extensions on each arm.

Those quotes came from the link provided to the experimental brushless PWB page, so there in lay my confusion.

P.S That link you provided doesn't work for me

Thanks again
Colin.
Nov 15, 2007, 12:54 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by 41south
Hi Mike,

Thanks for your answers, I know we are all bombarding you with questions and I for one really appreciate your time (and patience ) in answering them.

My frame is the same as the one pictured on the previous page of the thread and measures about 270mm from frame center to motor center. I understand that 330mm is more optimum for the "large" frame PWB? It is pretty easy to put some small extensions on each arm.

Those quotes came from the link provided to the experimental brushless PWB page, so there in lay my confusion.

P.S That link you provided doesn't work for me

Thanks again
Colin.
Thanks for the note. I believe that the link is fixed now so give it a try.

I also understand your confusion with the way Dammar had worded things on that page. I sent him a note about it with some recommended changes.

Mike
Nov 15, 2007, 08:08 AM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi Mike,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Excellent work, Joe!

It would be helpful if you could also plot watts on the chart since it is easier to compare systems.

I've seen pictures of that frame and have always admired the construction. It is really a work of art. I assume you ordered the small frame PWB.

Mike
I have a graph showing the power output of the same flight. So far, I'm pretty happy with the 3 bladed props. I have only managed to damage 1 so far due to entirely my own mistake.

The frame is quite ingenious. Unfortunately it's also relatively heavy at around 300+g. Silly me ordered the PWB for the larger frame

Regards,
Joe Ling

Nov 15, 2007, 09:46 AM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
Mike,
Thanks for all your answers so far. May I throw in another one?

I do most of my flying in a park bordered with large trees and next to a hill. Are there certain conditions (obviously you can't use it indoors) where TI just won't work? I did a Google search on TI, but the first bunch of links were about selling those boards. Can you point me to a link which discusses the pro's and con's of TI?

Joe,
I also have a similar frame, although it's beautiful, it's just plain heavy. I tried putting a camcorder on it... my setup could handle it for about 2 minutes, but then my lipo battery alarms went off prompting me to land. I hate to take apart a working system, so I'm looking forward to building this lower cost (but looks like high payload performance) solution with a frame of my own design!
Nov 15, 2007, 11:27 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Wow, lots of questions. Let me try to answer most with a simplified post:

41South - All those quotes you made from Dammar's website was in reference to the specific conversion of the Draganflyer. Using that small frame and existing gearing was a real challenge and if people want to do that conversion, then they should stick with the Motors and ESCs in my original documentation:

Original Draganflyer Brushless Conversion Documentation

Note that my first conversion before the availability of the brushless PWB was much more complicated but as you can see from the documetation, I tried to show all the details necessary for others to do the conversion. Many did and most shared their experiences so that everyone could benefit.

I hope to follow the same process with the 1000mm Quad Copter. I receive no financial benefits from any of this and am doing it only because I enjoy sharing design ideas and seeing the creative result of group interaction.

One last question for Colin: What is the motor spacing from the CENTER of the Quad? I find that motor to motor spacing can be confusing since you can measure to the opposite motor or adjacent motor. Let's keet the reference to the center.

Spudandretti - The free props included with the Dammar brushless PWB are for the original Draganflyer and will likely be of no use to anyone reading this thread.

tedrobphoto - I understand your frustration with the 35 Mhz requirement in the UK. It sounds like your 35 Mhz transmitter will work just fine if we can just tap the one required signal from the 35 Mhz receiver. If you can find someone close by that has an oscilloscope and knowledge about what the composite PWM signal looks like, you would probably be in business. Maybe someone reading this thread will have the answer.

Mike
Hello, again Mike
I've now managed to find a guy who says he can sort out my problem but I just want to know exactly what is required.
As far as I understand the 72 mhz receiver fitted by spectrolutions has to be removed (or bypassed) and the new 35 mhz receiver fitted so that it passes on the reqired signals to the board.

Ted
Nov 15, 2007, 12:31 PM
13brv3's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Hello, again Mike
I've now managed to find a guy who says he can sort out my problem but I just want to know exactly what is required.
As far as I understand the 72 mhz receiver fitted by spectrolutions has to be removed (or bypassed) and the new 35 mhz receiver fitted so that it passes on the reqired signals to the board.

Ted
Hi Ted,

I've fiddled with the earlier DF boards, but not this particular BL version, so I've been hesitant to enter the discussion. I'd be willing to bet that the receiver PPM requirement is the same, but Mike might have to verify that.

In any case, attached is a picture showing the PPM signal that's found inside a Berg 4L receiver, when a 7 channel TX is used. This is exactly what the previous version of DF board wanted to see, though you don't need 7 channels.

My understanding is that the number of PPM channels you get is determined by the TX you're using. The receiver just decodes each channels pulse into a separate output. In this case, a 4 channel receiver actually sees all 7 channels from my TX, but can only decode the first 4 channels. That clever Dammer just used the PPM signal from inside the receiver as the input to the DF board, so he can use the full number of channels of the TX.

Virtually all common receivers use this PPM signal inside, but you have to find it, and bring it out to input to the DF. I've never seen a 35MHz receiver, but I have to assume they work exactly the same way. If you're local guy can find this PPM signal inside a 35 MHz receiver, it should work.

Good luck,
Rusty
Nov 15, 2007, 12:55 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13brv3
Hi Ted,

I've fiddled with the earlier DF boards, but not this particular BL version, so I've been hesitant to enter the discussion. I'd be willing to bet that the receiver PPM requirement is the same, but Mike might have to verify that.

In any case, attached is a picture showing the PPM signal that's found inside a Berg 4L receiver, when a 7 channel TX is used. This is exactly what the previous version of DF board wanted to see, though you don't need 7 channels.

My understanding is that the number of PPM channels you get is determined by the TX you're using. The receiver just decodes each channels pulse into a separate output. In this case, a 4 channel receiver actually sees all 7 channels from my TX, but can only decode the first 4 channels. That clever Dammer just used the PPM signal from inside the receiver as the input to the DF board, so he can use the full number of channels of the TX.

Virtually all common receivers use this PPM signal inside, but you have to find it, and bring it out to input to the DF. I've never seen a 35MHz receiver, but I have to assume they work exactly the same way. If you're local guy can find this PPM signal inside a 35 MHz receiver, it should work.

Good luck,
Rusty
Hi, Rusty
Yes, I've actually sent an email to Berg about their receivers - I don't know which receiver Mike Dammar uses (or is it his own make) and althogh I do understand something of these signals - not very much I'm afraid!
Thanks anyway for your understanding
Regards Ted PS I have bitten the bullet and ordered a board because I've never seen such stability in a flying machine before and am seriously thinking of trying to sell the XUFO kit which has still not been built and get some money back although the rate of exchange with the American dollar at present is in our favour.
Nov 15, 2007, 05:39 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeling
Hi Mike,



I have a graph showing the power output of the same flight. So far, I'm pretty happy with the 3 bladed props. I have only managed to damage 1 so far due to entirely my own mistake.

The frame is quite ingenious. Unfortunately it's also relatively heavy at around 300+g. Silly me ordered the PWB for the larger frame

Regards,
Joe Ling
You can try the Larger Frame PWB with that small frame but you will proably see some oscillation.

The power charts are helpful. I assume that you know that you can get your true average power by using the mouse to outline just the period where you were flying. The graph will then show only that portion and the averages shown at the bottom of the chart will be correct.

Mike
Nov 15, 2007, 05:56 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Mike,
Thanks for all your answers so far. May I throw in another one?

I do most of my flying in a park bordered with large trees and next to a hill. Are there certain conditions (obviously you can't use it indoors) where TI just won't work? I did a Google search on TI, but the first bunch of links were about selling those boards. Can you point me to a link which discusses the pro's and con's of TI?

Joe,
I also have a similar frame, although it's beautiful, it's just plain heavy. I tried putting a camcorder on it... my setup could handle it for about 2 minutes, but then my lipo battery alarms went off prompting me to land. I hate to take apart a working system, so I'm looking forward to building this lower cost (but looks like high payload performance) solution with a frame of my own design!
Mikro,

Page 20 of this document describes it well:

Thermal Intellegence Doc

Looking foward to seeing your frame design. Your challenge will be to design one as large as my Kquad with a total system flying weight (without battery) less than 18.8 ounces.

Mike
Nov 20, 2007, 07:04 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
ORIGINAL: tedrobphoto

Hi, Mike
I am trying to contact you .... - I sent a private message with no success and wondered if everything is OK - it obviously is!-
A much simpler question (for now) I wanted to know the dimensions of the new board as I am building the frame ready for the new board from Mike Dammar - if you could let me know these I would appreciate it
Thanks again

Ted
Ted,

Lets keep the interface on this thread so it is not lost on page 4 of this forum. I will post the dimensions of the new board plus pictures later tonight.

Mike
Nov 21, 2007, 02:01 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Here are the pictures of the PWB used in the Kquad Copter:







Mike
Nov 21, 2007, 03:43 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Ted,

Lets keep the interface on this thread so it is not lost on page 4 of this forum. I will post the dimensions of the new board plus pictures later tonight.

Mike
Mike,
Thanks so much

I appreciate your trouble getting these measurements-of course I can't wait to get things up and running - no doubt I will have other questions before that happens.
I have had two breakthroughs however.
First I picked up a Futaba 72 mhz T6EXAP transmitter on Ebay for $51 plus postage and second I read that the Shultze 35mhz 4 channel receiver (which I now think is obsolete)is identical to the 4 channel Berg receiver - so - two options.
Kind Regards and more thanks

Ted
Nov 21, 2007, 09:50 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Mike,
Thanks so much

I appreciate your trouble getting these measurements-of course I can't wait to get things up and running - no doubt I will have other questions before that happens.
I have had two breakthroughs however.
First I picked up a Futaba 72 mhz T6EXAP transmitter on Ebay for $51 plus postage and second I read that the Shultze 35mhz 4 channel receiver (which I now think is obsolete)is identical to the 4 channel Berg receiver - so - two options.
Kind Regards and more thanks

Ted
Excellent buy on that T6EXAP! I would have bought one at that price just for a spare (and I already have a seven channel 2.5 Ghz Spead Spectrum Futaba on order).

As for having two options, I think the best thing would be to build two Kquads so that you have a spare.

I will continue to update the documentation including trying some higher power motors. I want to be able to fly a building brick around for a demo (a little under 5 lbs). That is about twice the payload weight I can do now.

Mike
Nov 22, 2007, 03:01 AM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
Mike,
Thanks for the TI info and the board dimensions. I'm having fun going to my local hardware store and working with different types of materials for frames. My latest iteration is to use the T-Rex 600 tail booms and combine them with 1/2" PVC pipe fittings. I like sticking with the tail booms (instead of the square tubes) because I can hide the ESC's in there and can hide my wires. My current quadrocopter has wires all over the place. I currently use a 4-way cross to connect 4 tail booms together, then will use a 3-way fitting to mount the motors. I then use half a hamster ball (an idea from another thread) to protect the electronics. Your challenge of building a 1000mm frame for under 18 ounces is tough. I'm already up to 14 ounces and I'm just building a 660mm frame.

One bummer is that I when ordered the recommended motors from Hobby City, they didn't include the heatsink mount that you have, but some plastic thing that looks like it should work with a gearbox for an airplane. The holes don't line up with anything on the motor, so I figure they are just using it as some type of shipping protection for the motor's long shaft. It's making me get creative with the way I'll mount my motors. I'll post a picture when I have them on. I really have a lot of respect for those who take the time to take pictures while they do a build. I'm so impatient I just want to get it done.

Wow... a 5 lb. brick? I guess I can eventually drop it on anyone who bothers me in the neighborhood!
Nov 22, 2007, 03:48 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Excellent buy on that T6EXAP! I would have bought one at that price just for a spare (and I already have a seven channel 2.5 Ghz Spead Spectrum Futaba on order).

As for having two options, I think the best thing would be to build two Kquads so that you have a spare.

I will continue to update the documentation including trying some higher power motors. I want to be able to fly a building brick around for a demo (a little under 5 lbs). That is about twice the payload weight I can do now.

Mike
Yea!, just a bit cheeky to suggest to a poor senior citizen but really a good idea nevertheless.
As I have never had a "Draganflyer" I wondered whether I'm going to get any info fom Mike Dammar regarding the required motor rev direction, which esc connectors attach to which connectors on the board etc - basically the wiring diagram - the little diagram with the website seems too small to make out details.
Regarding the bigger motors, I notice that (the bit I can make out) not to connect motors which draw more than a total of about 3 amps directly to the board answered previously by you in one of question and answer sessions.
I understand that the esc's have to be connected directly to the battery, therefore, for more power, the only limitation then is the complementary esc and the higher capacity battery otherwise short flight (no good for attacking the enemy!
Regards Ted
Nov 22, 2007, 03:53 AM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi Mike,

Having the payload of 5lb is something I look forward to seeing ! Also appreciate the dimension measurements.

I'm also anticipating the arrival of my PWB & decided that I will have to make a frame instead of using the original intended frame. I will use some blank PCB etched to remove the copper as the base for the frame with some hollow carbon squares similar to yours.





Regards,
Joe Ling
Nov 22, 2007, 10:47 AM
Registered User

Dimensions of and pin spacing of Berg receiver


Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Yea!, just a bit cheeky to suggest to a poor senior citizen but really a good idea nevertheless.
As I have never had a "Draganflyer" I wondered whether I'm going to get any info fom Mike Dammar regarding the required motor rev direction, which esc connectors attach to which connectors on the board etc - basically the wiring diagram - the little diagram with the website seems too small to make out details.
Regarding the bigger motors, I notice that (the bit I can make out) not to connect motors which draw more than a total of about 3 amps directly to the board answered previously by you in one of question and answer sessions.
I understand that the esc's have to be connected directly to the battery, therefore, for more power, the only limitation then is the complementary esc and the higher capacity battery otherwise short flight (no good for attacking the enemy!
Regards Ted
FAO Old Man Mike
I obtained the Schultze receiver as I originally stated and measured the pins and spacing - Could you let me know if the Berg receiver dimensions and pin spacings are the same and I will then know if I am on the right track.
Thanks again
Ted
Nov 22, 2007, 02:15 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
Ted,

The berg7 pins are arranged in a vertical fashion rather than the horizontal that you have there.

' ' ' ' ' ' ' signal
' ' ' ' ' ' ' +
' ' ' ' ' ' ' -

CH 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

http://www.castlecreations.com/produ...7-channel.html


Colin.
Nov 22, 2007, 02:40 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by 41south
Ted,

The berg7 pins are arranged in a vertical fashion rather than the horizontal that you have there.

' ' ' ' ' ' ' signal
' ' ' ' ' ' ' +
' ' ' ' ' ' ' -

CH 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

http://www.castlecreations.com/produ...7-channel.html


Colin.
Colin
Agreed, but we are discussing the Berg 4 channel receiver used by Mike Dammar in the board, then modified by the electronics on the board to produce 6 channels compared to the Schultze 4 channel receiver (I don't think is still produced) that I obtained from Ebay
Ted
Nov 22, 2007, 04:19 PM
Yet another flying K1W1
41south's Avatar
DOH! My most humble apologies - of course it's the Berg 4 . I've just had my head immersed in a UAVP problem with my own Berg 7 and got completely on the wrong track

I'll just sit in the corner for a while - maybe coffee will help

Colin.
Nov 22, 2007, 04:29 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by 41south
DOH! My most humble apologies - of course it's the Berg 4 . I've just had my head immersed in a UAVP problem with my own Berg 7 and got completely on the wrong track

I'll just sit in the corner for a while - maybe coffee will help

Colin.
Plus A wee drap o' scotch, maybe?
Ted
Nov 22, 2007, 06:19 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
FAO Old Man Mike
I obtained the Schultze receiver as I originally stated and measured the pins and spacing - Could you let me know if the Berg receiver dimensions and pin spacings are the same and I will then know if I am on the right track.
Thanks again
Ted
Ted,

The Schultze receiver pin spacing looks a bit odd to me. Are you sure they are not the standard three group, 0.1 inch spacing? Maybe they were just bent out a little when you took your measurements. Anyway, here are the photos and dimensions of the Berg receiver include with the PWB (it comes with the single wire modification):







Mike
Nov 23, 2007, 03:29 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Ted,

The Schultze receiver pin spacing looks a bit odd to me. Are you sure they are not the standard three group, 0.1 inch spacing? Maybe they were just bent out a little when you took your measurements. Anyway, here are the photos and dimensions of the Berg receiver include with the PWB (it comes with the single wire modification):







Mike

Thanks for all your painstaking measurements, Mike
On more careful measurement, it could be as you say - a bent pin or pins as I blew up the photo I took by 10x and remeasured and it appears to be nearer your measurements.
It's just the tricky bit of soldering that worries me a little - I will have to get a very adept solderer with good eyes!.
Regards
Happy Thanksgiving
Ted
Nov 24, 2007, 12:42 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Mike,
Thanks for the TI info and the board dimensions. I'm having fun going to my local hardware store and working with different types of materials for frames. My latest iteration is to use the T-Rex 600 tail booms and combine them with 1/2" PVC pipe fittings. I like sticking with the tail booms (instead of the square tubes) because I can hide the ESC's in there and can hide my wires. My current quadrocopter has wires all over the place. I currently use a 4-way cross to connect 4 tail booms together, then will use a 3-way fitting to mount the motors. I then use half a hamster ball (an idea from another thread) to protect the electronics. Your challenge of building a 1000mm frame for under 18 ounces is tough. I'm already up to 14 ounces and I'm just building a 660mm frame.

One bummer is that I when ordered the recommended motors from Hobby City, they didn't include the heatsink mount that you have, but some plastic thing that looks like it should work with a gearbox for an airplane. The holes don't line up with anything on the motor, so I figure they are just using it as some type of shipping protection for the motor's long shaft. It's making me get creative with the way I'll mount my motors. I'll post a picture when I have them on. I really have a lot of respect for those who take the time to take pictures while they do a build. I'm so impatient I just want to get it done.

Wow... a 5 lb. brick? I guess I can eventually drop it on anyone who bothers me in the neighborhood!
Yeah, I've noticed it is a hit or miss with Hobby City. Although the picture of the motor shows both a round aluminum and the square aluminum mounts as well as a comment that both are included, often they are not. It is a great deal when they are since those square mounts cost a couple of dollars at places like Hobby Lobby.

Good luck with the project.

Mike
Nov 25, 2007, 09:18 AM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the details of the Berg receiver mod. While I wait for the PWB to arrive, I have been thinking & trying to figure out a few things but cannot seem to find answers to. Could you help me ?

1) the berg receiver is 72mhz. I have 35 & 36mhz systems but not 72mhz. Thanks to jesolins at rcuniverse, I have the means to convert a Hitec micro receiver to output composite ppm signal. However, the pin configuration of the Hitec is different from the berg. How critical are these connections ? Am I right to say that the PWB needs only to see the composite PPM signal & only 1 pin is need for that (of course the + & - pins need to connect somewhere too). Do the other pins of the unused channels matter (i.e. are they used to conveniently secure the receiver to the PWB) ?

2) I am thinking of mounting a camera with a tilt function via servo to the quad. Is there a spare channel that can be used to control the tilt servo ? If so, where is the connection ?

Sorry if the questions seem a little silly. I am still learning. Thanks for your time.

Regards,
Joe Ling
Nov 25, 2007, 10:56 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeling
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the details of the Berg receiver mod. While I wait for the PWB to arrive, I have been thinking & trying to figure out a few things but cannot seem to find answers to. Could you help me ?

1) the berg receiver is 72mhz. I have 35 & 36mhz systems but not 72mhz. Thanks to jesolins at rcuniverse, I have the means to convert a Hitec micro receiver to output composite ppm signal. However, the pin configuration of the Hitec is different from the berg. How critical are these connections ? Am I right to say that the PWB needs only to see the composite PPM signal & only 1 pin is need for that (of course the + & - pins need to connect somewhere too). Do the other pins of the unused channels matter (i.e. are they used to conveniently secure the receiver to the PWB) ?

2) I am thinking of mounting a camera with a tilt function via servo to the quad. Is there a spare channel that can be used to control the tilt servo ? If so, where is the connection ?

Sorry if the questions seem a little silly. I am still learning. Thanks for your time.

Regards,
Joe Ling

Hi, Joe
Your number 1 question is one I wanted to know about as it appears that the pins are no longer used to output to the ESCs and motors - I presume that somewhere on the board there will be other output pins onto which the ESC connectors for the 4 motors marry up, although it is mentioned on Mike Dammars diagram connected to the new board about keeping down the current via some pins to about 3 amperes or the board will be damaged. The diagram on his website seems rather difficult to read (very small and indistinct) and I am hoping, therefore, that when I get my board I will know which output pins to use for which ESC/motor, the orientation of the motors
and their rotation. Of course, I realise, Mike has explained that direct connection between the main battery and the ESC's is therefore necessary so that theoretically there is no limit to the power of the quadrocopter (providing you have a BIG battery!)

Regarding particular receivers, somewhere on one of these many forums, the Shultze 4 channel receiver was mentioned as having the same pin orientation as the Berg (and also the same technology) so that is why I plumped for that.

Where are you situated using 35 MHZ - it intrigues me.

Regards Ted (UK)
Nov 25, 2007, 04:52 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeling
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the details of the Berg receiver mod. While I wait for the PWB to arrive, I have been thinking & trying to figure out a few things but cannot seem to find answers to. Could you help me ?

1) the berg receiver is 72mhz. I have 35 & 36mhz systems but not 72mhz. Thanks to jesolins at rcuniverse, I have the means to convert a Hitec micro receiver to output composite ppm signal. However, the pin configuration of the Hitec is different from the berg. How critical are these connections ? Am I right to say that the PWB needs only to see the composite PPM signal & only 1 pin is need for that (of course the + & - pins need to connect somewhere too). Do the other pins of the unused channels matter (i.e. are they used to conveniently secure the receiver to the PWB) ?
All that is needed is the composite PPM signal, power and ground. I assume that any of the power and ground pins can be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeling

2) I am thinking of mounting a camera with a tilt function via servo to the quad. Is there a spare channel that can be used to control the tilt servo ? If so, where is the connection ?

Sorry if the questions seem a little silly. I am still learning. Thanks for your time.

Regards,
Joe Ling
Since channel 5 and channel 6 are both used by DF for TI, it would have to be channel 7. I've never felt the need for a tilt servo but I suppose it might be useful.

Mike
Nov 25, 2007, 07:34 PM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi tedrobphoto,

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
...I presume that somewhere on the board there will be other output pins onto which the ESC connectors for the 4 motors marry up, ...

Where are you situated using 35 MHZ - it intrigues me.

Regards Ted (UK)
If I'm not mistaken, there are 4 sets of ouput pins located at the underside of the PWB for the purpose of connecting the servo leads of the escs.

I'm located in Malaysia. The rules with regard to the allowable frequencies for rc use is not clear. If there are rules, they are not really enforced (hope no one from home is reading this though ). I have a 36mhz synthesized module because I bought a Futaba 9CHP in Australia. I bought a 35mhz synthesized module because I have a X-ufo on the way & the receiver offered was 35mhz. Now, the PWB comes with 72mhz & I'm really hesitant to go for yet another different frequency module. I would really prefer to stick to one frequency range for obvious reasons. I think I will work on the 36mhz receivers from Hitec.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the insight. As mentioned above, I think I will modify the Hitec receiver & mate it to the PWB for a 36mhz system. Probably will do that for the X-ufo if it arrives (been 3 weeks & no news ).

I agree that channel 7 would have to be utilised for some auxiliary function. I'm curious how you activate the shutter of your camera. Is it not using a spare channel ? I'm clueless on AP so please be patient with me .

Regards,
Joe Ling
Nov 26, 2007, 09:05 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Hi, Joe
Your number 1 question is one I wanted to know about as it appears that the pins are no longer used to output to the ESCs and motors - I presume that somewhere on the board there will be other output pins onto which the ESC connectors for the 4 motors marry up, although it is mentioned on Mike Dammars diagram connected to the new board about keeping down the current via some pins to about 3 amperes or the board will be damaged. The diagram on his website seems rather difficult to read (very small and indistinct) and I am hoping, therefore, that when I get my board I will know which output pins to use for which ESC/motor, the orientation of the motors
and their rotation. Of course, I realise, Mike has explained that direct connection between the main battery and the ESC's is therefore necessary so that theoretically there is no limit to the power of the quadrocopter (providing you have a BIG battery!)
Regards Ted (UK)
Ted,

The last picture on page 4 of this thread shows the four three pin connectors on the PWB where the servo connection from the ESCs are plugged. As you look as that bottom view, the black wire side of each three pin connector goes to the right.

As you get closer, as far as wiring the power and motor wires of the ESC, I will make that clearer for you later.

Mike
Nov 26, 2007, 10:55 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Ted,

The last picture on page 4 of this thread shows the four three pin connectors on the PWB where the servo connection from the ESCs are plugged. As you look as that bottom view, the black wire side of each three pin connector goes to the right.

As you get closer, as far as wiring the power and motor wires of the ESC, I will make that clearer for you later.

Mike
Mike,
I couldn't ask for more - I think that I am rapidly becoming a "Mithering old git" or similar description, but I think the problem with me is the whole set-up seems so straight forward after the debacle of the other kit - firstly one piece of kit came out, then some weeks later another piece of kit - I had the complete kit and then the putting together was so complex even my friend who has helped me many times in the past with various projects sort of "put it to oneside" and forgot it and, to be quite honest, now it has gone I feel quite relieved as I could see it's limitations etc etc.
Waiting for the new board to arrive and then will again be in touch.
Kind Regards as always
Ted
Nov 26, 2007, 03:29 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeling
Hi tedrobphoto,



If I'm not mistaken, there are 4 sets of ouput pins located at the underside of the PWB for the purpose of connecting the servo leads of the escs.

I'm located in Malaysia. The rules with regard to the allowable frequencies for rc use is not clear. If there are rules, they are not really enforced (hope no one from home is reading this though ). I have a 36mhz synthesized module because I bought a Futaba 9CHP in Australia. I bought a 35mhz synthesized module because I have a X-ufo on the way & the receiver offered was 35mhz. Now, the PWB comes with 72mhz & I'm really hesitant to go for yet another different frequency module. I would really prefer to stick to one frequency range for obvious reasons. I think I will work on the 36mhz receivers from Hitec.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the insight. As mentioned above, I think I will modify the Hitec receiver & mate it to the PWB for a 36mhz system. Probably will do that for the X-ufo if it arrives (been 3 weeks & no news ).

I agree that channel 7 would have to be utilised for some auxiliary function. I'm curious how you activate the shutter of your camera. Is it not using a spare channel ? I'm clueless on AP so please be patient with me .

Regards,
Joe Ling
Yes, I wondered if Mike was using a servo to operate the camera, but in my experience I have used the video by starting it going and then launching, whereas for stills I have made a clip to hold down the shutter release, camera set on continuous which, after the first initial blast of rapid fire photos settles down to a steady 20 shots a minute, due to the time needed to write the data on the memory card.
Ted
Nov 27, 2007, 03:24 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Yes, I wondered if Mike was using a servo to operate the camera, but in my experience I have used the video by starting it going and then launching, whereas for stills I have made a clip to hold down the shutter release, camera set on continuous which, after the first initial blast of rapid fire photos settles down to a steady 20 shots a minute, due to the time needed to write the data on the memory card.
Ted
Yes, after extensive research and developement, here is the high tech approach for keeping the shutter going continuously in flight:



I usually end up with over 500 pictures to scan and just pick the best out of the group. If you want an excellent free program to do that, try Picasa.

Mike
Nov 27, 2007, 08:01 AM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi Ted & Mike,

Thanks for your valuable insight. I'm patiently waiting for my PWB to arrive...

Regards,
Joe Ling
Nov 28, 2007, 02:29 AM
Quad Crash Test Pilot
Mikro's Avatar
Yahoo! I received my board today! Unfortunately my wife and Thanksgiving derailed my frame building so far. I'll work on my landing skids (finally worked a way to mount my motors on round tubes) and finish wiring up my ESC's. I'll post pictures hopefully by this weekend (after I get the quad in the air!)

Mike,
May I ask some basic questions that I can't seem to find documentation for (this might be obvious to experienced Draganflyers, but I'm a Mikrokopter/X-UFO user).

Where is the front of the board? (I'm embarassed to ask) Is it where the Berg received is mounted or where the LEDS are?

Which servo connector goes to which motor (front, rear, left, right)? I suppose I can just plug 'em in and troubleshoot it, but thought it might be easier to just ask.

In case I can't find the connector used for power and need to rig up my own, which wire is + and -?

Since the graphs you've produced show current >10A, I'll plan on wiring my ESC's directly to the battery (which I assume is 3S, 11.1V).

Thanks so much for your guidance and wisdom so far!
Last edited by Mikro; Nov 28, 2007 at 02:50 AM.
Nov 28, 2007, 03:30 AM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi Mikro,

Aww, u beat me to it . I was just about to post the same thing. Yep, just received the board after some haggling with customs.

Here's a pic taken with my crappy mobile phone at the office :



Regards,
Joe Ling
Nov 28, 2007, 08:40 AM
Tri-Quad-Hexa-Octo-copters!!
Joe,
You're allowed to take it out of the baggie
Cheers,
Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeling
Hi Mikro,

Aww, u beat me to it . I was just about to post the same thing. Yep, just received the board after some haggling with customs.

Here's a pic taken with my crappy mobile phone at the office :



Regards,
Joe Ling
Nov 29, 2007, 11:00 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesolins
Joe,
You're allowed to take it out of the baggie
Cheers,
Jim
Hi, folks
Heard today that customs want £48 extra from me - About $100 (VAT and processing) Another blow to my pocket! - the board is due to be delivered tomorrow so I also will need all the help I can get with the wiring diagrams
I will have to sign off now, have a lie down after the monetary shock and recover!
Cheers Ted
Nov 29, 2007, 11:03 AM
Registered User
[QUOTE=Mikro]Yahoo! I received my board today! Unfortunately my wife and Thanksgiving derailed my frame building so far. I'll work on my landing skids (finally worked a way to mount my motors on round tubes) and finish wiring up my ESC's. I'll post pictures hopefully by this weekend (after I get the quad in the air!)

Mike,
May I ask some basic questions that I can't seem to find documentation for (this might be obvious to experienced Draganflyers, but I'm a Mikrokopter/X-UFO user).

Where is the front of the board? (I'm embarassed to ask) Is it where the Berg received is mounted or where the LEDS are?

Which servo connector goes to which motor (front, rear, left, right)? I suppose I can just plug 'em in and troubleshoot it, but thought it might be easier to just ask.

In case I can't find the connector used for power and need to rig up my own, which wire is + and -?

Since the graphs you've produced show current >10A, I'll plan on wiring my ESC's directly to the battery (which I assume is 3S, 11.1V).

Thanks so much for your guidance and wisdom so far!


Hi, folks
Heard today that customs want £48 extra from me - About $100 (VAT and processing) Another blow to my pocket! - the board is due to be delivered tomorrow so I also will need all the help I can get with the wiring diagrams
I will have to sign off now, have a lie down after the monetary shock and recover!
Cheers Ted
Nov 29, 2007, 05:45 PM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Yahoo! I received my board today! Unfortunately my wife and Thanksgiving derailed my frame building so far. I'll work on my landing skids (finally worked a way to mount my motors on round tubes) and finish wiring up my ESC's. I'll post pictures hopefully by this weekend (after I get the quad in the air!)

Mike,
May I ask some basic questions that I can't seem to find documentation for (this might be obvious to experienced Draganflyers, but I'm a Mikrokopter/X-UFO user).

Where is the front of the board? (I'm embarassed to ask) Is it where the Berg received is mounted or where the LEDS are?
The two LEDs are at the front. By the way, I trimmed off about a 1/4" of that front area (curved hook) of the vertical PWB so that it would not hit my aluminum roll cage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro

Which servo connector goes to which motor (front, rear, left, right)? I suppose I can just plug 'em in and troubleshoot it, but thought it might be easier to just ask.

In case I can't find the connector used for power and need to rig up my own, which wire is + and -?
My previous post showing the bottom view of the PWB has been updated to show the information. But here it is again:




Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikro
Since the graphs you've produced show current >10A, I'll plan on wiring my ESC's directly to the battery (which I assume is 3S, 11.1V).

Thanks so much for your guidance and wisdom so far!
Glad to help. That current is TOTAL current so each motor is drawing less than 3 Amps.

Mike
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 29, 2007 at 05:51 PM.
Nov 29, 2007, 09:49 PM
Registered User
joeling's Avatar
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the info on the orientation & sequence of the esc lead connections. I am still waiting for some items to arrive as I was assuming Mike from Spectrosolutions to advice me once the PWB has been sent. Well, he is more efficient than that & I have the PWB but not enought of auxiliary components to make it a flyer .



Hi jesolins,

Quote:
Joe,
You're allowed to take it out of the baggie
Cheers,
Jim
Yes sir, I will do just that when I get home



Hi Ted,

I had to pay some customs money too

Regards,
Joe Ling
Nov 30, 2007, 12:22 AM
Registered User
Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Wow, you guys really have high taxes! 100 dollars on a $375 product. Here is the wiring diagram for the motors & ESC. Using the Motors and ESCs I have listed at the beginning of this thread with this wiring should give the right motor direction. If a motor does happen to be turning in the wrong direction, just reverse the black and white motor wires.



Mike
Nov 30, 2007, 09:02 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Wow, you guys really have high taxes! 100 dollars on a $375 product. Here is the wiring diagram for the motors & ESC. Using the Motors and ESCs I have listed at the beginning of this thread with this wiring should give the right motor direction. If a motor does happen to be turning in the wrong direction, just reverse the black and white motor wires.



Mike
Hi, Mike
I am still recovering from the Tax shock

Thanks for all the info you have gone to the trouble of posting.
There are just a couple of items that I would like clarifying.

On the bottom of the board you are showing the white battery connector.
Is this supplying power to the board via the 10amp fuse as the ESCís surely are to be connected directly to the battery as you indicate in your last diagram (via a suitable fuse for whatever power is likely to be required)
This, of course allows (within reason!) any size of motor and ESC to be used, thus allowing a considerable lifting force, (or am I being completely off track?)

Quote "I don't know of any real limit with the PWB for even higher power motors since the motors/ESC connect directly to the battery." November 8


Is there a particular supplier for the female socket which connects to this white connector?

You show all the ESCís connected centrally to the battery. What is the rotational direction of each of the motors as this is not indicated?

Also, under the board, is shown (and a fitting supplied which plugs into it) the ESC power connector. What is the purpose of this connection and is it required if the ESCís are connected directly to the battery?

Sorry to be that ďmithering old gitĒ again

Regards Ted
Nov 30, 2007, 10:02 AM
Real wings, RC rotors
asw20rr's Avatar

Battery


Hi Mike,

I am about to start a quad project based on your airframe and power system. My brother, the computer genius, and I will be doing the processor board from scratch.

I am curious what batteries you have used and the performance you have seen. It appears to me that to get near the maximum power output from the motors you would need a 2100 mAh lipo with a 20 C discharge rating. I have several 3 cell lipos around, but none that can provide ~40 amps of current needed to get 4 motors up to 100 watts each

- Doug
Nov 30, 2007, 11:16 AM
Registered User
JWilliams2's Avatar
I Dled the vid. Wow, that thing is VERY stable. At first where it's about 10 feet off the ground, looks like it's on a professional videographer's platform or something, really nice.
Nov 30, 2007, 05:26 PM
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Old Man Mike's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
Hi, Mike
I am still recovering from the Tax shock

Thanks for all the info you have gone to the trouble of posting.
There are just a couple of items that I would like clarifying.

On the bottom of the board you are showing the white battery connector.
Is this supplying power to the board via the 10amp fuse as the ESCís surely are to be connected directly to the battery as you indicate in your last diagram (via a suitable fuse for whatever power is likely to be required)
This, of course allows (within reason!) any size of motor and ESC to be used, thus allowing a considerable lifting force, (or am I being completely off track?)

Quote "I don't know of any real limit with the PWB for even higher power motors since the motors/ESC connect directly to the battery." November 8
Here is a picture showing how to direct wire to battery ground and to the PWB fuse:



Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto

Is there a particular supplier for the female socket which connects to this white connector?
That connector is available from Spectrolutions but since you have such high import taxes, I would recommend that you just replace it with a Deans Ultra connector. I'm sure those are available at local R/C stores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedrobphoto
You show all the ESCís connected centrally to the battery. What is the rotational direction of each of the motors as this is not indicated?

Also, under the board, is shown (and a fitting supplied which plugs into it) the ESC power connector. What is the purpose of this connection and is it required if the ESCís are connected directly to the battery?

Regards Ted
The Front/Rear motors turn the same direction and use normal pitch props. The Left/Right motors turn opposite direction of Front/Rear and they use counter rotating props.

In all cases, the air flow is down. If you put your hand under any prop, you should feel the air pushing down.

That long black connector can be used to supply power to the ESCs (via the wiring diagram shown at the Spectrolutions website). But again, I would recommend just wiring directly to the battery/fuse as shown in the picture above. Either way should work.

I hope all that is clear.

Mike
Nov 30, 2007, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asw20rr
Hi Mike,

I am about to start a quad project based on your airframe and power system. My brother, the computer genius, and I will be doing the processor board from scratch.

I am curious what batteries you have used and the performance you have seen. It appears to me that to get near the maximum power output from the motors you would need a 2100 mAh lipo with a 20 C discharge rating. I have several 3 cell lipos around, but none that can provide ~40 amps of current needed to get 4 motors up to 100 watts each

- Doug
Hi Doug,

With the recommended props, the motors will not reach the maximum of 10 amps even at full throttle. The highest I've seen is 6 amps/motor when lifting 70 ounces. Take a look at the chart on page 2 of this thread and you will see that the average is less than 2.5 amps/motor when carrying a 1/2 pound payload. This goes up to 3 amps when carrying a 1 pound payload. I recommend flying with a payload of about 1/2 of the maximum lift so that you have margin. Since the Kquad can lift a little over two pounds of payload, I recommend keeping the normal payload at one pound. A 15 amp fuse is just fine for that.

I use both 1320 mAh and 2100 mAh batteries. You can see from the chart in my first post how much flying time you can expect to get for the various flying weight (payload plus Kquad & Battery). Is there additional data you need?

Mike
Nov 30, 2007, 06:59 PM
Real wings, RC rotors
asw20rr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike

I use both 1320 mAh and 2100 mAh batteries. You can see from the chart in my first post how much flying time you can expect to get for the various flying weight (payload plus Kquad & Battery). Is there additional data you need?

Mike
What discharge rating are your batteries? Particularly the 1320? 10C? 15C? 20C?

If you are getting good performance with the 1320 (obviously with a shorter run time that the larger battery) and it is not a 20C discharge, then that certainly shows a lot of flexibility in the power system.

Also, out of curiosity, is the BEC voltage from all 4 ESC's being fed into the control board?

Thanks,
Doug
Nov 30, 2007, 08:25 PM
Honey,just one more thing
spudandretti's Avatar
I think I will wait for this, until you can adjust the gyro rate from the receiver. I suppose that will come sometime. Unless someone can prove (tell me) that is not needed. I don't know nothing about this, so adjusting the gyro rate from the transmitter might be harder then a few software changes, but it sure would be nice. You can do what ever setup you want, big or small, and fly in what ever conditions you have.bud
Dec 01, 2007, 04:09 AM
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Old Man Mike's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by asw20rr
What discharge rating are your batteries? Particularly the 1320? 10C? 15C? 20C?

If you are getting good performance with the 1320 (obviously with a shorter run time that the larger battery) and it is not a 20C discharge, then that certainly shows a lot of flexibility in the power system.

Also, out of curiosity, is the BEC voltage from all 4 ESC's being fed into the control board?

Thanks,
Doug
Not sure why you think a 20C discharge rate is required. Flying with a 1/2 pound payload (30 ounce total system) does not require anything more than 10C rate for the 3 cell battery used. Maybe you are not reading my power chart correctly. Note that a 30 ounce flying weight only requires 90 watts of power. Anyway, here are the batteries I have flown:

Mile High Rc 1300 mAh - 3.7 Oz
12C (15.6A) continuous, 17 C (21.1A) burst

ThunderPower 1320 mAh - 3.1 Oz
13C (17A) continuous, 20 C (27A) burst

ThunderPower 2100 mAh - 5.2 Oz
15C (31.5A) continuous, 24C (50.4A) burst

Loong-Max 2250 mAh - 6.1 Oz
15C (33.8A) continuous, Burst not specified

FMA Direct 2100 mAh - 5.2 Oz
18C (37.8A) continuous, Burst not specified

As a point of reference, the smallest 1320 mAh Thunderpower battery was able to fly with my camera (1/2 lb payload) for more than 8 mins and a larger 1 lb payload for 5 mins.

The BEC voltage from the ESCs are not used, the PWB has it's own supply.

Mike
Last edited by Old Man Mike; Jan 14, 2008 at 10:57 PM.
Dec 01, 2007, 04:12 AM
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Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWilliams2
I Dled the vid. Wow, that thing is VERY stable. At first where it's about 10 feet off the ground, looks like it's on a professional videographer's platform or something, really nice.
Thanks. It is really amazingly stable even without the thermal intelligence enabled. I can easily fly it inside a 10 foot by 10 foot room.

Mike
Dec 01, 2007, 05:51 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Mike
Thanks. It is really amazingly stable even without the thermal intelligence enabled. I can easily fly it inside a 10 foot by 10 foot room.

Mike
Hi, again Mike

I would just like to put in writing, and I am sure all the other guys would agree how grateful I am to the work you have put in with testing, diagrams, explanations etc. I think now I am well on the way to ACTUALLY producing this flying machine - as I have said previously my only worry is that the project now seems so straight forward - difficult to believe after my past experiences!!

Thanks again - Will obviously keep in touch - the only problem now of course is weather!!

Cheers Ted
Dec 01, 2007, 06:26 AM
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joeling's Avatar
Hi Ted,

Totally agree with u. Thanks again to Mike for this.

Regards,
Joe Ling


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