A New 1000mm Quad Copter Design

Old Man Mike · 02:08 PM

I would like to present my 1000mm Quad Copter design based on a newly available $375 Controller PWB. The Controller PWB is a brushless redesign by the designer (Mike Dammar) of the Draganflyer Quad Copter.

The platform with motors and ESCs for the 1000mm Quad Copter shown can be built for approximately $125. The total cost of approximately $500 (plus a little time with a Dremel tool) provides the following:

1) Adjustable motor to motor spacing from 370mm to 995mm. I set it for a 650mm spacing (325mm from prop center to platform center) as shown in the photo which prevents the props from hitting the ground at any angle up to 90 degrees.

2) Weight 18.8 oz without battery. A two min test flying outside with a 30 ounce system (8.1 ounce payload with 3.1 ounce battery) averaged 88 watts.

3) Very resistance to crash damage with the mix of aluminum and two 1000 mm carbon fiber square tubes. Very easy to repair since no holes are drilled in the carbon fiber tubes and aluminum screw clamping is used. No plastic parts to break.

4) Outrunner Motors cost less than $7 with the mounts and have a maximum power rating of over 100 watts. Maximum lift for the 1000mm DF is over 70 ounces. I had no problem flying it inside my 10’ x 10’ room loaded as a 60+ ounce system (that is more than 2 lbs of payload!)

5) Flying is much smoother and more stable than the smaller frame quads I have flown. Note that the controller board includes a Thermal Intelligence module to help keep the unit level. Here’s a little bit of no-hands flying:

VIDEO - Flying No Hands

Here is the parts list:

Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 (new release: $399) (MDammar@spectrolutions.com)

Qty 4 TP2410-09 Brushless Outrunner with mount - $26
Qty 4 HW_P10A 10 Amp ESC - $58
Qty 2 8mm Carbon Fiber Square Tubing - $19
Qty 2 EPP1045 10x4.5 Props (Set of 2 counter rotating) - $8
Qty 4 MPI ACC363 3.00 mm Prop Saver - $2
Misc Alum sheet (.025” & .050”), 4-40 screws/nuts, Alum 1” square tubing, Velcro - $12

Total = $ 500

The pictures below should give you a rough idea of how it is constructed. I also included a power chart which might be a little difficult to read with the two axis. Note that one of the data points is a 9 minute flight with a 1320 mAh battery carrying a 8 ounce payload including my Panasonic Video/Still camera and foam mount (30 ounce flying weight).

Mike

Alternative mounting approach for the "Gold" version of the -09 motor:

Old Man Mike · , 04:48 AM

I'm not sure there is much interest but here is a video showing the new 1000mm Quad carrying a video/still camera payload and the resulting video from 120 feet:

Flying Quad VIDEO

And here is a sample still shot:

Mike

spudandretti · , 05:19 AM

OK, more info. Looked on there site and didn't see it.Bud

Old Man Mike · , 06:15 AM

Bud,

I assume you are asking about the special Brushless PWB I used:

Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 (MDammar@spectrolutions.com)

Dammar does not list this board on his Spectrolutions website. It is something special that he is making available to experimenters who wish to build a custom quad copter (if there is enough interest). You have to email him for details.

Mike

joeling · , 06:45 AM

Hi Mike,

This PWB is interesting. Could you share a little on how it works ? What sort of trimming / adjustment needed ? How is it connected to the system of motors, escs, batteries etc. Thanks.

Regards,
Joe Ling

tedrobphoto · , 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Man Mike

Bud,

I assume you are asking about the special Brushless PWB I used:

Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 (MDammar@spectrolutions.com)

Dammar does not list this board on his Spectrolutions website. It is something special that he is making available to experimenters who wish to build a custom quad copter (if there is enough interest). You have to email him for details.

Mike

Hello, Old man Mike from Old man Ted in the UK
All I have ever wanted has been such a machine as you so vividly demonstrate.
As you know there are many machines of a similar nature "doing the rounds" and I have a kit for such a machine ie the XUFO german designed quadrocopter complete with the latest X*ACC module which apparently will improve stability when I finally persuade my colleague to finish off the kit.
You have bought this module from Mike Dammar, made the frame with the motors but WHAT THEN IS REQUIRED! as the machine I have has to be programmed with the required firmware and software. Have you yourself had to work out the program for the machine; also how did you come across this module and what information have you obtained from Mike Dammar?
How stable is the machine and how resistant to mild wind?
Also can the board take more current than you are presently using so that more powerful motors can be used with larger props and a consequent increase in payload.

All in all however, a fantastic machine!

Best Wishes and kind regards Ted Robinson Cheshire UK

41south · , 03:21 PM

Hi Old Man Mike,

Excellent looking QC. Any more information you have will be gladly accepted.

I'm currently building the UAVP (www.lipoly.com), but would be very interested in a second machine such as this.

Cheers
Colin.

Old Man Mike · 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedrobphoto

Hello, Old man Mike from Old man Ted in the UK
All I have ever wanted has been such a machine as you so vividly demonstrate. ........

You have bought this module from Mike Dammar, made the frame with the motors but WHAT THEN IS REQUIRED! as the machine I have has to be programmed with the required firmware and software. Have you yourself had to work out the program for the machine; also how did you come across this module and what information have you obtained from Mike Dammar?

Thanks, Old Man Ted!

I'll try to answer your questions without getting too verbose:

There is nothing more to program or change with the PWB. You just plug in the servo connectors directly from the ESCs into the PWB. You need to solder the three wires from the brushless motors to the three wires of the ESCs and that is it.

Since I was the first person to convert the Draganflyer to a brushless design, Dammar allowed me to test and help refine the gyro settings. I asked him to consider selling just the PWB so that experimenters could build their own without having to get involved with the programming and electronics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedrobphoto

How stable is the machine and how resistant to mild wind?
Also can the board take more current than you are presently using so that more powerful motors can be used with larger props and a consequent increase in payload.

All in all however, a fantastic machine!

Best Wishes and kind regards Ted Robinson Cheshire UK

I have flown it 15 mph wind but it is not so pleasant and certainly not suitable for video during gusty wind. The Thermal Intellegence mode is quite good and will keep the unit level with no hands flying for up to 30 seconds once you have things trimmed. It is very helpful for maintaining level flight when you get above 200 feet since it is hard to see that high up.

With the camera payload flying as shown in my posted video, the total current averages just under 9 amps (2.2 amps per motor). Considering that these motors have a max current rating of over 13 amps, you see that there is a LOT of margin. I have flown with these motors carrying more than a 2 lb payload which averaged 22 amps (5.5 amps per motor). But I would recommend keeping the payload around 1 lb or less just so there is a good margin in throttle control. Since my camera and mount is less than an 8 ounce payload, I have plenty of margin. I look forward to soon flying a High Def camcorder which weighs 1 lb.

I don't know of any real limit with the PWB for even higher power motors since the motors/ESC connect directly to the battery.

Thanks again for you comments.

Mike

Old Man Mike · , 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41south

Hi Old Man Mike,

Excellent looking QC. Any more information you have will be gladly accepted.

I'm currently building the UAVP (www.lipoly.com), but would be very interested in a second machine such as this.

Cheers
Colin.

Hi Colin,

Thanks. I hope my previous posts provided more info. I will try to show some additional details on the frame design if people are interested.

And the UAVP is also quite interesting to me since I have an engineering background and enjoy digging deeper into the design. I have two UAVP boards on order so that I can play with them in my 1000 quad frame and using the same ESC/Motor combination. I really do not understand why people are using such expensive ESCs and Motors when the low cost units seem to work so well.

Mike

41south · , 05:30 PM

Thanks Mike,

I would certainly be interested in seeing more of your frame design.

OT:
I see that you appear to be fairly serious ham radio operator as well, by the looks of the antenna in the back yard. I've just got back into it after many years of being off air.

73's
Colin
ZL2ARL

Magellan · , 09:58 PM

Thanks for showing such detailed and close up photos of your frame. I was wondering how one would mount a TowerPro motor and you gave me the answer!

In one of your videos it looks like you have some sort of foam mounted on each arm and underneath the frame. Could you provide some photos and more information about what you are using and how it is mounted?

I'd also be interested in more information about how you built the little cage around the electronics in the center of the frame.

Also, I'm curious about what other sensors the PWB uses. What type of gyros does it use? Are they the ADXRS300's like the UAVP, MLX90609's, or something else?

tedrobphoto · , 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Man Mike

Thanks, Old Man Ted!

I'll try to answer your questions without getting too verbose:

There is nothing more to program or change with the PWB. You just plug in the servo connectors directly from the ESCs into the PWB. You need to solder the three wires from the brushless motors to the three wires of the ESCs and that is it.

Since I was the first person to convert the Draganflyer to a brushless design, Dammar allowed me to test and help refine the gyro settings. I asked him to consider selling just the PWB so that experimenters could build their own without having to get involved with the programming and electronics.

I have flown it 15 mph wind but it is not so pleasant and certainly not suitable for video during gusty wind. The Thermal Intellegence mode is quite good and will keep the unit level with no hands flying for up to 30 seconds once you have things trimmed. It is very helpful for maintaining level flight when you get above 200 feet since it is hard to see that high up.

With the camera payload flying as shown in my posted video, the total current averages just under 9 amps (2.2 amps per motor). Considering that these motors have a max current rating of over 13 amps, you see that there is a LOT of margin. I have flown with these motors carrying more than a 2 lb payload which averaged 22 amps (5.5 amps per motor). But I would recommend keeping the payload around 1 lb or less just so there is a good margin in throttle control. Since my camera and mount is less than an 8 ounce payload, I have plenty of margin. I look forward to soon flying a High Def camcorder which weighs 1 lb.

I don't know of any real limit with the PWB for even higher power motors since the motors/ESC connect directly to the battery.

Thanks again for you comments.

Mike

Thanks, Mike for the detailed reply and (I think some encouragement)
Yes, it is the programming side which terrifies me! and if that is taken care of it certainly does give me food for thought.
The machine (kit) I have bought at present ( which incidentally must have cost some $1000 plus) and am trying to persuade my colleague to build after which I have to load the programs via downloads is the XUFO quadrocopter developed by the German guys. The base is much smaller than the one you suggest and I do understand that bigger is better as far as stability is concerned.

Anyway, thanks again for a very interesting insight

Best Wishes and Regards

Ted

Old Man Mike · , 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magellan

Thanks for showing such detailed and close up photos of your frame. I was wondering how one would mount a TowerPro motor and you gave me the answer!

In one of your videos it looks like you have some sort of foam mounted on each arm and underneath the frame. Could you provide some photos and more information about what you are using and how it is mounted?

I'd also be interested in more information about how you built the little cage around the electronics in the center of the frame.

Also, I'm curious about what other sensors the PWB uses. What type of gyros does it use? Are they the ADXRS300's like the UAVP, MLX90609's, or something else?

Hi Magellan,

The bumpers and camera mount are made from a kid's foam stick used to play in a pool. They sell it in 6 foot lengths for a few dollars. I use soft stretch elastic (used in clothes) tied to nylon washers which slide over the aluminum tubing. The mount is then suspended just below the Quad to reduce any vibrations from the motors. The pictures show provide enough detail on how it is used. During the early development period, I had several crashes from 100 feet and higher without damage to the camera.

The RollCage is made from 0.025 inch aluminum sheet cut into two strips 0.7" wide. The strips are bent to shape and secured with 4 screws and a center screw. Not much to it but it does an excellent job protecting the PWB and still allowing the TI sensors a clear view.

The Gyros are labeled as ENCO5EA9 but I have no details.

Mike

spudandretti · , 07:04 AM

Are you using your own receiver? If I purchased something like this, I would like to use my DX7.Bud

Magellan · , 05:45 PM

Hi Mike,

Thank you for the detailed reply!

I like the innovative use of the foam sticks and elastics. I'll have to consider using something like that to shield a camera when I get one in the air. It sounds like it provides plenty of cushioning should a fall occur!

Nov 06, 2007, 02:18 AM #1
Old Man Mike
Old Man Mike Registered User	Discussion A New 1000mm Quad Copter Design I would like to present my 1000mm Quad Copter design based on a newly available $375 Controller PWB. The Controller PWB is a brushless redesign by the designer (Mike Dammar) of the Draganflyer Quad Copter. The platform with motors and ESCs for the 1000mm Quad Copter shown can be built for approximately $125. The total cost of approximately $500 (plus a little time with a Dremel tool) provides the following: 1) Adjustable motor to motor spacing from 370mm to 995mm. I set it for a 650mm spacing (325mm from prop center to platform center) as shown in the photo which prevents the props from hitting the ground at any angle up to 90 degrees. 2) Weight 18.8 oz without battery. A two min test flying outside with a 30 ounce system (8.1 ounce payload with 3.1 ounce battery) averaged 88 watts. 3) Very resistance to crash damage with the mix of aluminum and two 1000 mm carbon fiber square tubes. Very easy to repair since no holes are drilled in the carbon fiber tubes and aluminum screw clamping is used. No plastic parts to break. 4) Outrunner Motors cost less than $7 with the mounts and have a maximum power rating of over 100 watts. Maximum lift for the 1000mm DF is over 70 ounces. I had no problem flying it inside my 10’ x 10’ room loaded as a 60+ ounce system (that is more than 2 lbs of payload!) 5) Flying is much smoother and more stable than the smaller frame quads I have flown. Note that the controller board includes a Thermal Intelligence module to help keep the unit level. Here’s a little bit of no-hands flying: VIDEO - Flying No Hands Here is the parts list: Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 (new release: $399) (MDammar@spectrolutions.com) Qty 4 TP2410-09 Brushless Outrunner with mount - $26 Qty 4 HW_P10A 10 Amp ESC - $58 Qty 2 8mm Carbon Fiber Square Tubing - $19 Qty 2 EPP1045 10x4.5 Props (Set of 2 counter rotating) - $8 Qty 4 MPI ACC363 3.00 mm Prop Saver - $2 Misc Alum sheet (.025” & .050”), 4-40 screws/nuts, Alum 1” square tubing, Velcro - $12 Total = $ 500 The pictures below should give you a rough idea of how it is constructed. I also included a power chart which might be a little difficult to read with the two axis. Note that one of the data points is a 9 minute flight with a 1320 mAh battery carrying a 8 ounce payload including my Panasonic Video/Still camera and foam mount (30 ounce flying weight). Mike Alternative mounting approach for the "Gold" version of the -09 motor: Here is an index to this thread showing more details: Building and Flying the Kquad OMM Quad Rev2 Chapter 1 - Overview & Baseplate https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2116 CF Carbon Fiber Stengthening Options - https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2211 Chapter 2 - PWB Mount & Roll Cage https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2296 Chapter 3 - PWB Modifications https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3181 Common Problems & Solutions Antenna hitting Metal Roll Cage: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1933 TI Sensors Visibility Obscured: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1813 Aluminum Stand-offs Shorting PWB: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1610 Checking TI Performance:https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3777 Camera Mount https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...9&postcount=13 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...8&postcount=80 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...68115&page=197 PWB Details https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...2&postcount=59 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=353 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1699 (Rev 2 reveiw) Optional Gyro Sensitivity Adjustment https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1550 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1557 Berg Receiver Details https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...9&postcount=70 Props Installation and Motor Mounting Notes https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1626 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1456 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1270 Motor/ESC Wiring https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...5&postcount=89 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=343 http://www.spectrolutions.com/brushless_proto.htm https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=582 Brashley's Motor charts: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2309 Rusty's Motor/Prop charts: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2365 Transmitter Controls Setup https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=103 Throttle Calibration https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3631 Flying Checklist http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6868113/tm.htm High Altitude Flight Videos https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1531 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2131 FPV (Flying by Video Goggles) https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1112 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1332 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1681 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1891 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2131 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2236 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=2926 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3256 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3468 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3557 Payload Weight vs Battery Fly Time https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=424 Parts Suppliers Controller PWB http://www.spectrolutions.com/brushless_proto.htm Complete Frame Kits https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1261 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3691 Props http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-29a.html https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=358 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=359 Motors http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=5111 http://www.nitroplanes.com/24oubrmo.html http://www.quadroufo.com/product_inf...2aac95edf731e8 ESCs http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...idProduct=4204 Carbon Fiber 8mm Square Tubing http://www.hobby-lobby.com/carbonfiber.htm Aluminum Sheet https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchan...p=2&top_cat=60 Aluminum Screws/Nuts http://www.fastener-express.com/inde...S&Category=218 Optional FPV components http://www.rangevideo.com/ http://www.hyperlinktech.com/category.aspx?id=71 (Antennas) Variations of the Kquad Design Kocto Quad (8 motors) https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=362 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=406 Alternate 2409-18 Motors with 12A Pulsar ESCs https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=296 Alternate Props https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=149 Mod for 2.4Ghz FASST https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=804 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=844 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1748 OMM Rx Converter Rev1 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3316 Modification for Channel 6 & 7 outputs https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3633 OMM Rx Converter Rev2 https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=3810 Rusty's OMM Rx Converter Sales FPV Configuration https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1112 Alternate Hitec Receiver https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=163 Audio supplement to Green LEDs https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=198 I3brv3 (Rusty) TREX boom frame https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=206 Mikro Quad https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=104 Tedrobphoto Quad https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=150 Johntee Quad https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=226 Black Dragan Quad https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=610 Sammy B Quad https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...&postcount=637 MitMit Quad https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=1707 (with camera gimbal) Flyboy_001 Quad https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=4698
	Last edited by Old Man Mike; Nov 24, 2009 at 02:08 PM.

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A New 1000mm Quad Copter Design

Thanks for the detailed reply.

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Nov 08, 2007, 04:48 AM #2
Old Man Mike
Old Man Mike Registered User	I'm not sure there is much interest but here is a video showing the new 1000mm Quad carrying a video/still camera payload and the resulting video from 120 feet: Flying Quad VIDEO And here is a sample still shot: Mike

Nov 08, 2007, 05:19 AM #3
spudandretti
spudandretti Honey,just one more thing	OK, more info. Looked on there site and didn't see it.Bud

Nov 08, 2007, 06:15 AM #4
Old Man Mike
Old Man Mike Registered User	Bud, I assume you are asking about the special Brushless PWB I used: Qty 1 Dammar Brushless PWB - $ 375 (MDammar@spectrolutions.com) Dammar does not list this board on his Spectrolutions website. It is something special that he is making available to experimenters who wish to build a custom quad copter (if there is enough interest). You have to email him for details. Mike

Nov 08, 2007, 06:45 AM #5
joeling
joeling Registered User	Hi Mike, This PWB is interesting. Could you share a little on how it works ? What sort of trimming / adjustment needed ? How is it connected to the system of motors, escs, batteries etc. Thanks. Regards, Joe Ling

Nov 08, 2007, 03:21 PM #7
41south
41south Yet another flying K1W1	Hi Old Man Mike, Excellent looking QC. Any more information you have will be gladly accepted. I'm currently building the UAVP (www.lipoly.com), but would be very interested in a second machine such as this. Cheers Colin.

Nov 08, 2007, 05:30 PM #10
41south
41south Yet another flying K1W1	Thanks Mike, I would certainly be interested in seeing more of your frame design. OT: I see that you appear to be fairly serious ham radio operator as well, by the looks of the antenna in the back yard. I've just got back into it after many years of being off air. 73's Colin ZL2ARL

Nov 08, 2007, 09:58 PM #11
Magellan
Magellan Registered User	Thanks for showing such detailed and close up photos of your frame. I was wondering how one would mount a TowerPro motor and you gave me the answer! In one of your videos it looks like you have some sort of foam mounted on each arm and underneath the frame. Could you provide some photos and more information about what you are using and how it is mounted? I'd also be interested in more information about how you built the little cage around the electronics in the center of the frame. Also, I'm curious about what other sensors the PWB uses. What type of gyros does it use? Are they the ADXRS300's like the UAVP, MLX90609's, or something else?

Nov 10, 2007, 07:04 AM #14
spudandretti
spudandretti Honey,just one more thing	Are you using your own receiver? If I purchased something like this, I would like to use my DX7.Bud

Nov 10, 2007, 05:45 PM #15
Magellan
Magellan Registered User	Hi Mike, Thank you for the detailed reply! I like the innovative use of the foam sticks and elastics. I'll have to consider using something like that to shield a camera when I get one in the air. It sounds like it provides plenty of cushioning should a fall occur!