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Oct 04, 2007, 09:05 AM
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Should a 5 year old be allowed to fly at fly-ins/ sanctioned events Part II


Here's a link to the original thread which was closed for some unknown reason.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=748287

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-51C
I was reading through the unfortunately closed Helicpoter accident thread and ran across this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by H&H
Allowing a five year old to operate such a dagerous machine in close proximity to so many people shows incredibly bad judgement, regardless of the outcome.
.02c



Quote: originally posted by Vintauri

In that case I'd like to start seeing the Drivers Licenses of many "older" people revoked for no other reason then thier age.

People are too hung up on the kids age and not his abilities. Other say it's maturity okay so how are we going to test the abilities of people flying at these events? I can tell you I've been scared being around all ages when they have been flying. Age cannot be the determinig factor.

After thinking about it, I thought a poll should be posted to get a snapshot of everyones viewnow that people have had time to settle down and think about the event.

As a backdrop, age is used as determining factor in many things in life. I am discrimated against when buying a house in florida...unless I get to be 55, I couldn't drive a care until I was 16, you can't buy beer until your 21...even though you can be shot at in the military.

So what do you think, does a 5 year old have the cognitive ability to make the decisions that may be required when flying RC. Or maybe you should think about it this way, if a 5 year old climbed into the cockpit of an airliner, would you be a passenger?
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Oct 04, 2007, 10:11 AM
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theKM's Avatar
because he tried to take a partheon shot as he was closing the thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-51C
It seems you are confusing listening to an adult and decision making ability. There is no doubt that kids learn quickly, but being able to make quality decisions on complex issues is the question here.

The question isn't wheather a 5 year old can listen to an adult and learn to fly an rc helicopter...which apparently is how you read the question.

The question is, SHOULD a 5 year old be allowed... This obviously presumes the child can in fact fly the toy.

I do however applaud your attempt to change the discussion.
Mr P-51C... I understand the question fully and was not changing the conversation at all. Whether kids can skillfully fly model aircraft in a truly safe manner really does underpin the reason why they should be able to do so.

So let me restate it all for ya nice and clear... kids can fly models with all the aptitude and skill to do so safely and within all boundaries of due diligence. For this reason, they should be allowed to participate in the sport up to a level that is representative of their skill and aptitude, and this includes all events and competitions.
Oct 04, 2007, 03:01 PM
BD Flyer's Avatar
If the thread starter closed the last thread, you have no right to make another one.

This ''5 year old'' thread sucks anyway...
Oct 04, 2007, 03:32 PM
Rocket Programmer
jasmine2501's Avatar
Yeah it sucks, but only because people keep saying the same thing. I think everyone agrees on several points:
1. Safety is important and both event organizers and participants are both responsible for good safety.
2. SOME 5 year olds have the skill to fly safely
3. MOST, but not all, 5 year olds don't have the judgment to make split-second life-and-death decisions when things go wrong.
4. Ability can be tested and measured
5. Judgment can not be tested or measured

Where we disagree is whether those things add up to an automatic ban on 5 year olds at events. I think it clearly does, and TheKM thinks otherwise. There are plenty of facts to support either opinion, but there is disagreement over how those facts add up... no amount of argument is going to change that, so there's no longer any point in discussing it. Everybody knows the facts, but we still have different conclusions. Unless someone has some evidence that changes things drastically, there's isn't much point in going on about it. So, show me DNA evidence or something, otherwise just accept the fact that half of the people disagree with you, which is the ratio according to the poll.
Last edited by jasmine2501; Oct 04, 2007 at 03:39 PM.
Oct 04, 2007, 03:35 PM
Registered User
And if you changed the poll such that young people could not vote, just like in the real world, it's likely 75% or more would not agree with him.
Oct 04, 2007, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine2501
Where we disagree is whether those things add up to an automatic ban on 5 year olds at events. I think it clearly does, and TheKM thinks otherwise. There are plenty of facts to support either opinion, but there is disagreement over how those facts add up...
One attitude excludes the youth from participating even though their skills and aptitude may be more than up to the task.

The other attitude allows the youth to participate up to their skill level and have have great experiences and personal rewards as a result.


Because skills are readily testable, there's no guess-work that needs to go into whether a pilot is able or if they're unsafe, which means that events can be held with utmost safety and due diligence. And because events can be held safely, we should take the attitude towards inclusion, because getting the youth excited about participating is the most important thing our sport should be doing in looking towards the future.

Taking the side of inclusion means more people can enjoy things... exclusion just takes on the form of bitter people being nasty for no truly legitimate reason... it's just "oh, you fly really well, but we think that you're unsafe anyway, so come back in a dozen years and try again".

But if you say to someone, anyone, that if they work hard enough and can demonstrate their abilities that they can be included in something... it's not some hard "no you cant" but an open ended outcome that is ultimately in their hands. something they can work towards.
Oct 04, 2007, 04:03 PM
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theKM's Avatar
there's too many exclusions in this freak'n world to add another one to what is one of the best personal growth hobbies for anyone, let alone kids. Let the kids get out of it what they can without crappy restrictions just because of a frigging number.... they'll run into plenty of the "life sucks" exclusions of real life outside of the hobby.

...you're not rich enough
...you're too fat
...you're not white enough
...you're too gay
...you're not gay enough
...you're not a catholic
...you're not old enough
...you're too old


bah! way too much of it.

LEAVE IT OUT OF THIS ACTIVITY THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!



Oct 04, 2007, 04:11 PM
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theKM's Avatar
If you say "NO", you close people off.
If you say "yes, but you'll have to work for it", you not only have not closed the door, but given something for them to work towards, and in doing so can enrich their life.
Oct 04, 2007, 04:11 PM
Registered User
Then why don't YOU start a kids only giant heli flying club and assume all responsibility for what happens. Calling people names because they disagree with you shows your argument is weak.
Oct 04, 2007, 04:16 PM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
My 2 cents. If the original thread title had just had the words "helicoptor fun fly in it", I would not have voted at all. I have never been to a big helicoptor funfly and don't really know much about them. I have probably only seen a RC helicopter fly a dozen or so times in the 13 years I have been flying RC....

But it did not, it said sanctioned events. OK everyone, raise your hand here if you have actually sanctioned and directed an event (Ryan raising hand). I have had < 7 year old competitors at contests I have sanctioned. I'm pretty sure the competitors were 5 years old in one or two of the events. Based on the type of stuff I fly and what I CDed, I'd say the kids were quite safe and they were supervised by adults/parents (heck, how could they get to the field without an adult...). So I had to vote yes.

Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons
Oct 04, 2007, 04:20 PM
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theKM's Avatar
when people rather just say no rather than come up with some reasonable solution that results in inclusion... it's simply poisonous. It really is the wrong way of looking at things, because it represents a degradation of ones ability to be free to explore, some imaginary wall that confines ones spirt for no dang good reason.


It's stuff like this that makes the world so much hard to face in the morning... but heck... let the "we need age restrictions" people win... it'll edge RC flying closer to the dark side. If people see that it's so dangerous they have age restrictions like driving cars, that must mean it's super dangerous, so lets look at find out if it's easier to shut it down all together. Maybe one day we'll just have simulators only. Awesome.


As an ex-6yo RC pilot... I say to heck with everyone that thinks we need age restrictions, because there's safe ways to let everyone play.


bah!
I'm done.
Oct 04, 2007, 04:23 PM
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theKM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by roverjohn
Then why don't YOU start a kids only giant heli flying club and assume all responsibility for what happens. Calling people names because they disagree with you shows your argument is weak.
saying that I called someone a name means you can't read. where did I call anyone a name?
Oct 04, 2007, 04:26 PM
Suspended Account
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by BD Flyer
If the thread starter closed the last thread, you have no right to make another one.

This ''5 year old'' thread sucks anyway...
I have no right!?!? Really? Where is the RCGroups "rights" page? I was not aware thread creation was a protected right. Please enlighten me.
Oct 04, 2007, 04:35 PM
Registered User
So why wouldn't he be allowed to fly at an event? Because of what? He was flying where he was supposed to and he crashed. Something flew off and hit someone. Same can happen with a more experienced pilot as well. I see no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to fly. As long as he stays in the boundries he is supposed to be in.
Oct 04, 2007, 04:42 PM
Sink stinks
Montag DP's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine2501
3. MOST, but not all, 5 year olds don't have the judgment to make split-second life-and-death decisions when things go wrong.
3a. MOST, but not all, adults don't have the judgment to make split-second life-and-death decisions when things go wrong.

Maybe we should ban R/C flying altogether.


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