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Sep 06, 2018, 12:07 PM
jackerbes's Avatar
Originally Posted by segraves
Hi, Jack.

Here’s the link:

I’ll add it to My Blog later.

Caution to users: Please engage your Popup Blocker and Block Cookies, if you’d like to avoid annoying pop ups at Tripod.

For donations, if you like, please see instructions in the README files for any of the ScaleAndTile-related programs. Even easier than sending a check, just go the The Rotary Foundation web site,

Please click on Donate, and follow the ensuing directions. When you get to the Honoree field, it would be helpful to my Rotary Club if you would enter “William A. Segraves, Rotary Club of Sarasota” in that field of the form. Thanks in advance for your support of Rotary’s humanitarian programs.

Bill Segraves
Developer of ScaleAndTile
Many thanks to Bill Segrave for sharing ScaleAndTile with us.

I made myself a test case and went to his Tripod web page and downloaded all of the files he lists there to a working folder on my virtually never used and always detested Windows 7 installation and got it working as I took notes.

And the attached text file should help Windows users get ScaleAndTile up and running. And the text files on Bill's page should answer the rest of the how to questions. But ask here too if you want, we'll probably have someone that can answer any questions...

7 September,

I've added a second how to file to this post, it describes the installation process for Linux users.

Last edited by jackerbes; Sep 07, 2018 at 12:57 PM.
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Sep 06, 2018, 01:30 PM
Registered User
Originally Posted by jackerbes
Many thanks to Bill Segrave for sharing ScaleAndTile with us.

I made myself a test case and went to his Tripod web page and downloaded all of the files he lists there to a working folder on my virtually never used and always detested Windows 7 installation and got it working as I took notes.

And the attached text file should help Windows users get ScaleAndTile up and running. And the text files on Bill's page should answer the rest of the how to questions. But ask here too if you want, we'll probably have someone that can answer any questions...

You’re the best!
Thanks and blessings,
Sep 06, 2018, 06:45 PM
jackerbes's Avatar
Originally Posted by Jim_W
Anyone know or have any links to the (known) largest Blu-Baby ever built?
I don't know why I didn't think to mention it when I replied to your question before but there are two posts in this thread that have many of the plans for the various sizes of BB's.

Those posts would be post #1 on page 1, and post #107 on page 8.

And there is another thread here that tends to fade into the background because it is not a sticky thread and it seldom gets any posts to it. That is the ** Tony65x55 ** planes and plans thread here:

** Tony65x55 ** planes and plans. -

That thread is basically a summary all the planes and plans that have been inspired by Tony65x55's Blu Baby 33 thread and his earlier thread about the Kline-Fogelman Flying Wing (aka the KFm1 Zagnutz flying wing). There links to many different types and sizes of aircraft there, all or nearly all with KF wings.

Sep 14, 2018, 06:41 AM
I've got my plans printed now. Looks like I'll be waiting on this build until I can get some MPF. I'm not a fan of splicing the fuse, and this one is 36" long! DTFB is 30" long.
Sep 14, 2018, 06:58 AM
Or....Maybe I will try to use this stack of green foam I bought from Lowe's a couple of years ago!

Blue Baby 33..Lowe's green FFF (plans available on in the "scratchbuilt foamies" forum. (1 min 25 sec)
Sep 14, 2018, 08:05 AM
jackerbes's Avatar
After destroying a couple of BB 33 fusleages in not too major one point landings I built what I called a monocoque fuselage. It is still in one piece today and is as flyable as it was on it's maiden flight. I have a number of wings I can use on it too.

It uses a piece of 2" blue board insulation as a full length monobloc for the fuselage and that is sheeted on the outside with pieces of 1/4" FFF for additional strength/stiffness.

Go to this link (page 748 of this thread)

and then click on the yellow link on the top right that says "** Blu-Baby Primary Trainer ** Plans, Pics and Fun!" and it will put you into the thread on that page.

I have two posts on that page that describe the monocoque fuselage build:

And you can do the same thing with any of those links, go to the link, click on the yellow link to "** Blu-Baby Primary Trainer ** Plans, Pics and Fun!" and you are in the thread there.

The plane weighed 448 grams/15.8 oz. without a battery and flew at about 630 grams/22.2 with the 4S A123 or 585 grams/20.6 oz. 1500 mAh LiPo pack.

The only real difference in the design, from the original BB 33, was that I moved the horizontal stabilizer from a slot in the tail to up on top of the tail to make the monobloc stronger and easier to build with.

And I did not cut the battery cavity in the monobloc until I had the fuselage built and had a wing on it so I could get a battery location that made the CG location right. To do that, with the wing on, just tape the battery to the bottom of the fuselage and move it fore and aft until the plane balances level on your fingertips at 1/3rd of the wing chord.

I flew it with the KFm3P Polyhedral tip wing in this video:

KFm3P Wing Test on Blu Baby 33 Foamie (6 min 40 sec)

And there is not a better wing for a BB 33 trainer or sports fly than that KFm3P wing! It is strong and stable in a RET configuration and with ailerons added it will satisfy all sports flying needs!

** Blu Baby 33" KFm3P Polyhedral Tip Wing Build ** -

Sep 15, 2018, 03:16 AM
I've decided to build a 42" version of the BB since I'm using the DTFB. Could someone point me toward a pictorial or video of the KFm3 42" wing build? I'm a little unsure of the spar placement for gluing the dihedral joiner to.

Thanks, Jim.
Sep 15, 2018, 08:16 AM
jackerbes's Avatar
The dihedral joint in the center of the wing really complicates getting a strong wing built. I have made wings that way but since I found the KFm3P wing with the dihedral on the tips and the flat center section, I would never use center joint dihedral again.

For a 42" wing with DTFB I would try a 30" flat center section and 6" polyhedral tips with about 1-1/2" of rise on each tip. And I would use a 29" or so spar (1/8" dowel or CF tube or rod) located just in front of the riser that holds the first step up.

For the tips I would used the Gorilla glue and clear duct tape wrap. The key here is to make sure you spritz with water to get the foaming action and that the glue is spread down into the joint and under tape.

And if the wing felt like it needed a little more stiffening I would put another 1/8" dowel or 2mm rod on the leading edge, again with Gorilla glue, but with a wrap of clear package sealing tape over the dowel, glue and leading edge. I get my 1/8" dowels from the crafts section at Wal-Mart and the 2mm rods came from a kite kit that I spotted in a local close out store.

This thread and some ingenuity and creativity on your part should get you a good wing build:

** Blu Baby 33" KFm3P Polyhedral Tip Wing Build ** -

And I'll guarantee that comparing the flight characteristics of polyhedral tips to center joint dihedral will give you the same or even better stability and self recovery to level flight. And if you want to add ailerons to the build for more control the KFm3P will accept them cheerfully and those will work well too.

I have used some DTFB but not built a full 42" or so wing with it yet. So you'll be plowing new ground there but if you use Gorilla glue and spritz with water and have the full contact area of the laminations and any fillers or step supports you will have strong enough wing. If you can document your build in a thread here with some details and photos, you could become a hero of one oof the best wing builds ever here !

Sep 15, 2018, 01:30 PM
Registered User
justj's Avatar
Hi Jack,
On my 40" Oshkosh version I use 3/16" dowels on both leading and trailing edges. I steam them with my teapot and put them in a jig to dry and set the dihedral angle. I'm using the under cambered wing.... I recess the dowels slightly by taking a round riffler file to the leading and trailing edges [more surface contact for the GG]
I've built 18 or 20 of the Oshkosh this way. I've only had a problem with one pilot who could manage aerobatics on 3 channels. I built him a special wing with less dihedral and added a layer of 3/4 oz fiberglass around the joint.

Sep 15, 2018, 05:50 PM
jackerbes's Avatar
Hi Jerry,

I understand and appreciate those that fly the undercambered wings and light planes and you sound like an expert at it for sure. I just prefer slightly heavier and more robust build with just a little more power. It is, in part, because of my living in coastal Maine and having to deal with higher and prevailing winds. And I have no indoor flying locations at all.

And even when I have a little more power I am not really inclined to use it much. But if you get caught downwind in a coastal breeze with a waning battery and flying over heavily forested land with few if any roads, you really appreciate the ability to fly into the stronger winds with a little authority.

Many here act as if a 12 oz. or so BB 33 with the undercambered wing is the holy grail of flying. I built two BB 33's like that neither one survived their maiden flights. I am a better flier now but I am also building for conditions.

Sep 15, 2018, 06:10 PM
Registered User
justj's Avatar
I understand your situation Jack!
We get some pretty stiff winds here as well! [Chino {windy} Valley, AZ] luckily, mostly in the afternoon. It gives us light winds to enjoy some mornings.
I just thought I'd chime in with options from my experience.

Always enjoy your posts!!

Sep 15, 2018, 07:21 PM
Foamy and Glider fanatic
Blacky's Boy's Avatar

Aileron wing success!

I had previously built a KFm3 wingtip dihedral following the directions Jack posted here and used that on my 3 channel BB42. It worked GREAT and was perfect for getting me started with this amazing plane. A couple months ago I got the itch to try an aileron wing and I modified that same wing so that it featured them. They were about 1" x 5" and while they worked the plane felt,....."clunky". Maybe it was the effect of the dihedral. Maybe it was the size of the ailerons. Not sure. But it wasn't as fun to fly as the 3 channel version.

So last week I made an entirely new KFm3 wing with the recommended dihedral (wings elevated 1" at the tips). I mde braces at the correct angle using popsicle sticks and they helped me nail the dihedral exactly where it needed to be. The wing has a 1/4" bbq skewer as the spar and is covered in packing tape. Before I added the tape, I gave the wing a shot of 3M 77 spray adhesive. That made the tape stick even better.

After waiting nearly a week for good weather I finally got a chance to try it out today. And let me tell you, they did not disappoint! The full length ailerons really give it a lot of authority. But by dialing back the travel and using some DR and Expo it was fine. I was up in the air just as easily as I was with the 3 channel version.

I follow with some photos later
Sep 15, 2018, 07:59 PM
jackerbes's Avatar
When a wing with dihedral also has ailerons there can be some consequences.

It has been discussed here a little and I've never had a wing like that but the thing that happens is that when you use the ailerons on a wing with dihedral the wing that is away from the direction of a aileron turn tips up from horizontal and has less lift than the wing that is in the direction of the turn as it become more horizontal.

What happens is that for a left turn the left wing become something akin to being level with the horizon and the opposite side's wing is tipped up at an angle. And it was theorized by some here that the left wing would have more lift than the right wing in a left turn and vice versa in a right turn.

The discussion on this usually came up in the course of discussing flat wing with ailerons as opposed to adding ailerons to a wing with dihedral.

And there was also some discussion of the amount of deflection that was needed to turn dihedral wing being more than was needed for a flat wing.

I build a flat KFm2 wing for my Slow Stick and it was a very nice wing for making that a sportier plane to fly. You can see the discussion on it's flight characteristics here:

And the plans and how to build it info is here:

I set up a camera to shoot the left aileron for one flight to see how much deflection I was using and you can see it in this video:

Slow Stick with flat KFm2 wing aileron action -
Slow Stick KFm2 Aileron Action (2 min 28 sec)

It is not a real good video but if you track on the sky and horizon as the deflections take place, you can how little deflection is need to make turns and even rolls. And it turned the Slow Stick into a real sporty flier too as you can see here:

KFm2 Slow Stick - Swooping, Loopin', & Low and Slow too! (3 min 44 sec)

So somewhere along the line, I came to think that it was better to not use ailerons on wings with dihedral and not using dihedral on wings with ailerons.

When the polyhedral tip wing came into my life I changed my view a little. I think it is OK to have ailerons on a polyhedral tip wing.

Last edited by jackerbes; Sep 16, 2018 at 09:18 AM.
Sep 16, 2018, 06:34 AM
I've owned a few planes with polyhedral over the years, and while they do fly well, I've never been a fan of their appearance...just me I guess! I'm even having a hard time with the look of a KFm airfoil wing lol....but I am giving it a shot.
Sep 16, 2018, 08:26 AM
Registered User
I have both undercamber and polyhedral versions. I built the polyhedral version as a platform for learning to fly FPV. The polyhedral BB has strongest wing of anything I own and has been a stable platform

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