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Feb 23, 2009, 08:20 PM
jrb
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Feb 23, 2009, 08:40 PM
Registered User
Carl Petersen's Avatar
Super, thanks jrb
Feb 24, 2009, 10:37 AM
LaurenceGough's Avatar
Thanks Simon, I made myself a little lipo warmer box and heated them up to 35C (both sides). The difference in power is insane! Never thought it would matter so much, next time I'll heat them up even more to 45C so should be better for flying.

They never even got no where near this hot even after throwing the packs around in flight. 20C at the max I would say after flight without pre-heating a lot.

That would explain why I had more power during the warmer months last year (other than the 13T) .

Thanks all again .
Feb 24, 2009, 11:24 AM
Heli Addict
nexus665's Avatar
Sure thing I noticed the same thing when I went flying...no power at all from my lipos, and now with the heater box, the performance level is just like it is in summer.

Happy flying!

On an unrelated note, thanks again for your answer, Lucien.

Regards,
Simon.
Feb 25, 2009, 09:01 PM
The Eh Team
I sure would love to hear more about the 5030 motors - how the prototypes perform, expected release dates, variants that are expected to be produced first. I personally have three new good-sized planes in the 10-14lb range that will all be flying on 10S packs and which currently have no motors. I'm itching to see if the new 5030 will fit the bill for some or all of these.
Feb 26, 2009, 12:28 AM
RC Dude Hobbies
Quote:
Originally Posted by eajohnson
I sure would love to hear more about the 5030 motors - how the prototypes perform, expected release dates, variants that are expected to be produced first. I personally have three new good-sized planes in the 10-14lb range that will all be flying on 10S packs and which currently have no motors. I'm itching to see if the new 5030 will fit the bill for some or all of these.
Check post #4187 for info on the new 55mm motor sizes and Kv models that are going to be available. Latest word from Lucien here in the forum was a March/April date of arrival.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...postcount=4187

I'm waiting for the new 55mm too for a giant scale Stinson Reliant I'm building. The plane is going to be a bit over 20lbs.
Feb 26, 2009, 01:44 PM
The Eh Team
Well, it's getting pretty close to March!

I wonder if any of those motors would swing a 20"-22" 4-blade on 10S.. that would be nice on a scale P-47..

The 5525 looks like it weighs as much as the AXI 5330 which is unfortunate. The 5030 size looks better to me for F3A (https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...php?t=1004532).

I'm sure all these will have their applications. Having an update on the roadmap would be good, it would be nice to know whether some or all of these will be on the menu for this season (i.e. have a chance of being put on the market before May) or are a 'future' thing to consider for next year.
Feb 26, 2009, 03:07 PM
Innov8tive's Avatar
Thread OP

Hello Everyone!


Well, it has been a couple days since I stopped by the thread, so I thought I would stop by and answer some questions.

666yeti666,

All of the earlier problems with the Scorpion Motor bearings were with the early release helicopter motors. The bearing manufacturer that Scorpion was using shipped some bearings that did not meet uo to the required specs, and this was not found until after the motors had been built and shipped out. SInce then, Scorpion has switched to the NMB bearings, which are a much higher quality and quality control, and since the switch, we have had very few bearing problems.

The problems thta occur now are almost all the result of operator error, either by setting the gear lash too tight during set-up, or by running the helicopter in extremely dirty or dusty conditions.

With the new model motors, there is no need to disassemble them to oil the bearings. Using the Scorpion Bearing Lubrication Kit that is available on our website, you can easily oil the bearings without taking the motor apart.

Here ae a couple photos that show the proper locations for oiling the motor bearings.









eajohnson,

I just got an Email from Georges, the owner of the Scorpion Company, and he said that I should have samples available to display for the new 5030 airplane motor, the HK-5035 heli motor, and a new 2503 airplane motor for indoor F3P in time for the Toledo Show, which takes place in 5 weeks on April 3rd through the 5th. As soon as I get any more information, I will post it here.

The 5030 motor is being designed specifically for electric powered F3A aircraft, so it should be a good match. The 55mm motors are supposed to be ready aropund the end of March if everything goes smoothly. I will let you all know as soon as I have more information.

Thanks again for all of your support!

Lucien
Feb 26, 2009, 05:50 PM
Innov8tive's Avatar
Thread OP

Issue with 6-cell 90 amp SW ESC


We have had several reports lately of failures of the Scorpion 60 and 90 amp 6-cell speed controllers when used in helicopters such as the Trex 500, Trex 600, MSI Protos, Logo 500 and Logo 600. In most of these failures, the ESC failed after 5-6 flights, and usually occured during a normal hover. In a couple cases, the ESC's have caught on fire and caused minor damage to the helicopter frame.

I have spent a large amount of time over the past couple weeks analyzing the ESC's that have been returned, and tried to piece together what might be causing these failures. What I have determined is that the failures are being caused by the end user overloading the BEC circuit with high power digital servos. In most of the cases, the end user is not aware that they are doing anything wrong, but that does not stop the fact that the BEC is being overloaded.

Over the past several months, people have found out about the performance increases that can be gained by switching to Digital Servos. These servos provide faster response, better centering, and more responsive control, but all that comes at a price.

The older analog servos would gradually increase their current draw as a control was either moved or drifted off center. Small current inputs would correct any off center conditions, and everything was fine. The newer digital servos provide full operating current as soon as the servo moves off center and corrects the surface more accurately and much quicker. Unfortunately, these new servos can pull as much as 2 amps of current every time the move at all, and this creates an extreme load on the BEC circuit. If you multiply this by 4 servos, then you end up with current surges in the 8 amp range and this will quickly toast the BEC circuit.

If you are lucky, when the BEC burns out, the ESC just stops working and the helicopter auto's down. However, in some cases, when the BEC burns out, the ESC sticks on with one phase and quits switching. If this happens, there is basically a short circuit between the battery and motor, and the current draw goes up to a few hundred amps throough the ESC. The weak link in the chain in this scenario is usually the FET transistors on the ESC, and within a couple seconds, they overheat and go up in a blaze of glory.

The only solution for this issue is education. You cannot run a group of servos that consistantly pulls current surges of 8 amps, and expect them to run on a BEC rated for 3 amps with a 4 amp surge. We are recommending that everyone that is running a 500 or 600 class helicopter run either a seperate switching BEC circuit or a separate battery pack that is capable of providing the required current to these extremely power hungry servos.

If anyone has any comments on this, I would like to hear from you.

Thanks!

Lucien
Feb 26, 2009, 06:03 PM
Registered User
Skylar's Avatar

Issue with 6-cell 90 amp SW ESC


Lucien

In my opinion, these ESC's should have been opto-type in the first place, forcing the end user to use a UBEC or separate Rx and servo battery. This however does not fix the current situation where there may be a lot in use already.

My 2c worth

Christo
Feb 26, 2009, 06:25 PM
Heli Addict
nexus665's Avatar
Hi Lucien,

so - running 3 Savox SH-1350 digi servos on the swash (stall current: [email protected], [email protected]) and normal running current of 80mA/100mA at 4.8/6V plus a S9257 or MKS DS8910 on the tail (270 mA normal running current, 1100mA stall current) plus AC3X and AR7000 receiver should be okay?

After all, if all 4 servos are at stall current at the same time, it's usually on the ground after a hard crash...or you're using servos way too weak for their job. I'm assuming you mean servos like the ultraquick JR ones that just suck juice like there's no tomorrow when you wrote about the BEC being overloaded.

Right now, I'm running the same combo on an SJM (Turnigy/Pulsar etc. OEM part) 60A 6S ESC with 3A/4A BEC without problem. Since I'm just placing an order for parts, I guess a UBEC will be on the list anyway, just to make sure.

For 500 size helis, weight is still an issue - an extra lipo will make them a bus instead of a race machine, so I really enjoy a strong BEC like on the Scorpion ESCs. Don't forget most others don't even offer 3A continuous like these do. Overloading your components is not the components' fault but user error, as Lucien pointed out

Regards,
Simon.
Last edited by nexus665; Feb 27, 2009 at 10:07 AM.
Feb 26, 2009, 06:29 PM

Quad Motor?????


Hi, I have wanted to put together a Scorpion kit but I have a bit of a unique situation. I am going to use the motor in a quad (specifically a Mikrokopter) and will be spinning EPP1045 props (counter rotating 10” x 4.5”). As I read through motor threads, a lot of it is geared toward planes or helicopters with max thrusts at x currents and y efficiencies using different props. This is only half of the sorry for a quad since flying it a full throttle would result in a craft being gone is seconds.

Some unique challenges:
1) High torque: stability comes from being able to quickly control the RPM of the prop so the higher the torque the better
2) High efficiency needed at hover thrust: So if the quad weighs 1100g and if I have 4 motors then each motor will need to be very efficient at 1100/4=275g lift per motor.
3) Need at lest a 2.3:1 thrust to weight ration: To yaw you need to slow down two motors while still being able to generate enough thrust with the other two. If the ratio is much lower then this then control suffers. So if the quad is 1100g then I need at least 2530g total thrust and that is 2530/4=632g max thrust per motor. You actually don’t fly it at max thrust very much, most of the time you are just hovering.
4) Light weight: This is normal but lighter is not always better if efficiency is compromised. No lift from a wing in a quad so grams do count…..
5) Low vibration: The flight control uses accelerometer and gyros to stabilize the craft, vibration ends up being noise that can produce jittering and stability issues in the craft.
So for me the max thrust is only a check box, what I am really interested in is efficiency at hover thrust levels and torque.

I have looked at the specs for your 2212-26 939 kV motor and the prop charts and things look about right but I am stuck using the EPP1045 (or EPP1245) and I think they must generate a little more thrust then some of the APS or GWS equivalents. For example, a cheep KDA 2022L (Hacker clone) can generate ~750g thrust using the EPP1045. I would expect the Scorpion 2212-26 to be in that ballpark or higher. I am currently using a Himax HC2812-0650kV motor but I think the quality is not as consistent as expected (had some problems) and I don’t think they are using the best magnets.

Would it be worth trying to wind a 2212 to say a 36 turn and get the KV down in the 750 range?

Any thoughts on what type of Scorpion motor to go with or try to make that would fit this situation. Mikrokopters are big in EU (Germany specifically) so I would think some one has already worked on this.

Thanks in advance for the help,

Richard
Last edited by brashley; Feb 26, 2009 at 06:57 PM.
Feb 27, 2009, 08:02 AM
Registered User
jamesppp's Avatar
I finally gt some Eagletree data logging equipment. I wanted to see how much current my 2A stall rated servos(300ma no load operating current) in my helis were pulling in flight.

Although, I would never expect to see an 8A load in real flying conditions I do use either Western Robotics Hercules BEC's or an 8A cont 2S-3S powered voltage regulator.I havent gathered any data yet.

In the interim, a fellow Outrage flyer using JR 8417's on a Phasor 600 posted a graph of a hard 3D flkight and the current never exceeded 2.77 A. This made me fell comfortable with my setup

I was hoping that the newer line of controllers with a switching BEC were OK with semi amp hog servos, not 8 amps worth, maybe 5A peaks??but that should be an uncommon situation in the air. I would like to know what servos were being used with the ESC's that burned due to BEC overload. Inos? big Aligns?, Spek's?
When I get some some servo graphs Ill post them somewhere if anyone is interested

Here is link to the JR 8417 graph: http://www.helifreak.com/showpost.ph...72&postcount=8
Last edited by jamesppp; Feb 27, 2009 at 08:19 AM.
Feb 27, 2009, 04:27 PM
Registered User

When will new 30xx motors be available?


I notice that some of the 30xx motors are "out of stock" --3014-22 for example. When will their replacement versions be available?
Feb 27, 2009, 06:20 PM
Registered User
Carl Petersen's Avatar
Quick question, I just received my S 4025-10. It has male bullet connectors on the motor and no female connectors. Are these 4mm?

It really would be a plus if the motors came with connectors; now I have to order and wait for them to be delivered before I can use the motor.


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