Originally Posted by iwannarc

The other so-called Muslim countries are all puppets of the west, maintaining their kingships with coercion and arms from the west, having carved out these kingdoms with the help of the west, and are unlikely to want to upset their principals, and "Iraqization". Remember Saddam was OUR dictator! Their peoples are often heart and soul with the Pals, but are repressed by their respective governments with torture and other vile punishments.

Huh! How doe's that answer my question? You say that there are no Muslim countries that are not under the control of the US? Dude......take a deep breath and read what you have written.........now lets try it again and try to answer my question please.

Originally Posted by WhiteCloud

Huh! How doe's that answer my question? You say that there are no Muslim countries that are not under the control of the US? Dude......take a deep breath and read what you have written.........now lets try it again and try to answer my question please.

Name me one that ain't scared of becoming the next Iraq. Afghanistan refused to cowe down to US demands to run oil pipelines through their territory and paid the supreme price. This determines whether there can be anybody else trying to make any changes to the Israel/US game plan at middle east domination and willing to irk US neocons. And also look up the US record of Aid and what that depended upon (voting with US wishes in UN votes, for starters.) And how arms are twisted and delegates spied upon to do the US' bidding (including World Bank, IMF, WTO, and other manifestations of US hegemony.)
Dude, we send our inconvenient prisoners to be 'rendered' (read TORTURED) in those countries. Need I say more?

Originally Posted by iwannarc

Name me one that ain't scared of becoming the next Iraq. And also look up the US record of Aid and what that depended upon (voting with US wishes in UN votes, for starters.) And how arms are twisted and delegates spied upon to do the US' bidding (including World Bank, IMF, WTO, and other manifestations of US hegemony.)
Dude we send our inconvenient prisoners to be 'rendered' (read TORTURED) in those countries. Need I say more?

So, other Muslim countries will not help other Muslims in need because they are all scared? Wow! they have a very low set of morals don't they. In other words other Muslim countries will only help other Muslims if they are not inconvienienced?

Originally Posted by WhiteCloud

So, other Muslim countries will not help other Muslims in need because they are all scared? Wow! they have a very low set of morals don't they. In other words other Muslim countries will only help other Muslims if they are not inconvienienced?

Yup, we have puppets that toe the line and do not really care about the well-being of their citizenry. It will change when there are people strong enough to stand up to the oppressors, in which regard there is an interesting tradition that I'd like to quote here:

When Mustawrid al-Qurashee was sitting with 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, he said,
"I heard the Prophet say, 'The Hour will come when the Romans will be in the majority.' 'Amr asked him, "What are you saying?" He said, "I am repeating that which I heard from the Prophet." 'Amr said, "If you say this, it is true, because they have four good characteristics: they are the most able to cope with tribulation, the quickest to recover after disaster and to return to the fight after disaster, and are the best as far as treating the poor, weak and orphans is concerned. They have a fifth characteristic which is very good; they do not allow themselves to be oppressed by their kings."

So it may be that when caucasian muslims are in the majority, that may be when muslims are able to stand up against oppression!

I am exaggerating slightly here, but not by much.

Originally Posted by iwannarc

Name me one that ain't scared of becoming the next Iraq.

Iran.



By the way, they are very charitable to the Palestinian cause. However not with food or water or business or commerce or humanitarion aid; but with weapons.


**************************


The Israeli flag's blue lines are copied from the lines of a Jewish prayer shawl. That's it. It's that simple. Nothing complicated.


From Wikpedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_flag

Claims of "Nile to Euphrates" territorial ambitions

It has been alleged by some groups that the blue stripes on the Israeli flag actually represent the rivers Nile and Euphrates, which some Zionist thinkers (such as Avraham Stern and Israel Eldad) had claimed as the boundaries of Eretz Yisrael, the land promised to the Jews by God. [4] Those making this allegation insist that the flag "secretly" represents the desire of Jews to conquer all of the land between the Nile and Euphrates rivers, which would involve conquering and ruling over much of Egypt, all of Jordan, and some of Syria and Iraq. Yasser Arafat also made the allegation, [5] and repeatedly tied this notion to the stripes on the Israeli flag. [6] [7]

Both Zionist and anti-Zionist authors have debunked the claim that the stripes on the flag represent territorial ambitions. Daniel Pipes notes "In fact, the blue lines derive from the design on the traditional Jewish prayer shawl", [8] and Danny Rubenstein points out that "...Arafat... added, in interviews that he gave in the past, that the two blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent the Nile and the Euphrates... No Israeli, even those who demonstrate understanding for Palestinian distress, will accept the... nonsense about the blue stripes on the flag, which was designed according to the colors of the traditional tallit (prayer shawl)..."[7] Persistent critic of Israel and Zionism Israel Shahak is equally explicit. In his The Zionist Plan for the Middle East he states

A good example is the very persistent belief in the non-existent writing on the wall of the Knesset of the Biblical verse about the Nile and the Euphrates. Another example is the persistent, and completely false declarations, which were made by some of the most important Arab leaders, that the two blue stripes of the Israeli flag symbolize the Nile and the Euphrates, while in fact they are taken from the stripes of the Jewish praying shawl (Talit).

Saqr Abu Fakhr, an Arab writer, has also spoken out against this idea. He demonstrates that the "Nile to Euphrates" claim regarding the flag is one of seven popular misconceptions and/or myths about Jews which, despite being unfounded and having abundant evidence refuting them, continue to circulate in the Arab world. [9]

Nevertheless, as recently as January 29, 2006, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar issued a demand for Israel to change its flag, citing the "Nile to Euphrates" argument. [10]

********************

All this from a bunch of nations that have swords on their flags.

Defending, and identifying yourself with, those who fight undeclared terrorist wars is contemptible behavior. Terrorism is a growing problem because it's considered an acceptable way to wage war by the ignorant, the uncivilized and the amoral. Yes, I could be talking about you if you fit the description.

Kidnapping a uniformed soldier for the purpose of torturing him or threatening to torture him can't be tolerated. Whoever decided to make that incursion into Israel must have underestimated the reasonably foreseeable response.

Arguing the merits or the work ethic of the Palestineans is academic; all you have to do is look at how they live and who they choose to lead them. Would their fellow Muslim Arabs not assist them with loans and investments if there was a point to it?

Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto

Iran.



By the way, they are very charitable to the Palestinian cause. However not with food or water or business or commerce or humanitarion aid; but with weapons.


**************************


The Israeli flag's blue lines are copied from the lines of a Jewish prayer shawl. That's it. It's that simple. Nothing complicated.


From Wikpedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_flag

Claims of "Nile to Euphrates" territorial ambitions

It has been alleged by some groups that the blue stripes on the Israeli flag actually represent the rivers Nile and Euphrates, which some Zionist thinkers (such as Avraham Stern and Israel Eldad) had claimed as the boundaries of Eretz Yisrael, the land promised to the Jews by God. [4] Those making this allegation insist that the flag "secretly" represents the desire of Jews to conquer all of the land between the Nile and Euphrates rivers, which would involve conquering and ruling over much of Egypt, all of Jordan, and some of Syria and Iraq. Yasser Arafat also made the allegation, [5] and repeatedly tied this notion to the stripes on the Israeli flag. [6] [7]

Both Zionist and anti-Zionist authors have debunked the claim that the stripes on the flag represent territorial ambitions. Daniel Pipes notes "In fact, the blue lines derive from the design on the traditional Jewish prayer shawl", [8] and Danny Rubenstein points out that "...Arafat... added, in interviews that he gave in the past, that the two blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent the Nile and the Euphrates... No Israeli, even those who demonstrate understanding for Palestinian distress, will accept the... nonsense about the blue stripes on the flag, which was designed according to the colors of the traditional tallit (prayer shawl)..."[7] Persistent critic of Israel and Zionism Israel Shahak is equally explicit. In his The Zionist Plan for the Middle East he states

A good example is the very persistent belief in the non-existent writing on the wall of the Knesset of the Biblical verse about the Nile and the Euphrates. Another example is the persistent, and completely false declarations, which were made by some of the most important Arab leaders, that the two blue stripes of the Israeli flag symbolize the Nile and the Euphrates, while in fact they are taken from the stripes of the Jewish praying shawl (Talit).

Saqr Abu Fakhr, an Arab writer, has also spoken out against this idea. He demonstrates that the "Nile to Euphrates" claim regarding the flag is one of seven popular misconceptions and/or myths about Jews which, despite being unfounded and having abundant evidence refuting them, continue to circulate in the Arab world. [9]

Nevertheless, as recently as January 29, 2006, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar issued a demand for Israel to change its flag, citing the "Nile to Euphrates" argument. [10]

Time will tell, won't it, whether Israel is expansionist or not!?

Originally Posted by iwannarc

Time will tell, won't it, whether Israel is expansionist or not!?

Yes. Time will prove it to those who believe otherwise.

Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto

Yes. Time will prove it to those who believe otherwise.

And meanwhile they're already back grabbiing Gaza, no doubt for the natural gas and oil off-shore. The previous "leaving" Gaza was a way of having the international community not see them entrench themselves in the west bank, and get maximum "reparations" from the US for moving out...

Originally Posted by Ledbetter

Whoever decided to make that incursion into Israel must have underestimated the reasonably foreseeable response.

nope, they knew exactly how harsh israel's response would be. but all the crying they get to do to whoever will listen is worth far more than all their dead people and smoldering infrastructure.

doesn't make one bit of sense to any westerner but that's where the differences between cultures come into play.


dave

Originally Posted by iwannarc

And meanwhile they're already back grabbiing Gaza, no doubt for the natural gas and oil off-shore.

The Israelis have no intention of holding on to that armpit of the world.

It's simply to clean up from those darn missiles being launched into Israel everyday.

Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto

The Israelis have no intention of holding on to that armpit of the world.

It's simply to clean up from those darn missiles being launched into Israel everyday.

An excellent piece by Hassan Abu Nimah that argues why Israel's latest onslaught against a defenseless civilian population is a recipe for disaster. Americans better wakeup before its too late. Israel is headed off a cliff and taking America along for the ride.

The latest events underscore both Israel's true intentions and their futility. Israel never really wanted to set the people of Gaza free, merely to move the occupation to the edge, bombing and shelling them whenever they fail to do its bidding. Yet for all the brutality of Israel's attacks on Gaza's people, they have not buckled or wavered. They have stood firmly for their rights and behind the authority they elected.

Israel's pretext for its current onslaught is the "kidnapping" of a soldier. What happened though was that after weeks of Israeli killings of Palestinian civilians, including the infamous beach massacre, Palestinian resistance forces carried out a planned operation against an occupation military base near Gaza. In the battle there were losses on both sides, and one Israeli soldier was taken prisoner. No matter how strongly one opposes violence, this can by no means be described as "terrorism". People see it as an act of legitimate resistance which international law permits.

But even if we accept the warped Israeli logic that the capture of a combat soldier allows it to exact revenge against one and a half million civilians, then we could ask how many wars the Palestinians would be entitled to wage against Israel just for the civilian death toll of the last month, let alone the six decades of Zionist aggression and dispossession. How many wars should the Palestinians wage on behalf of the thousands of political prisoners kidnapped by the occupation, including now eight Cabinet ministers and one quarter of the Palestinian Legislative Council?

Yet the blame does not fall only on Israel, but also on the "international community" — the US, the EU and a few other states who have arrogated to themselves this label.

The US explicitly endorsed Israel's collective punishment of the Palestinians, which is strictly prohibited by international law, as "self-defence". The EU, always silent about Israel's kidnapping of Palestinians, called for the immediate and unconditional release of the occupation soldier, and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan bleated a few noises about "restraint" on both sides.

Israel's lethal outburst in Gaza cannot seriously be intended to free the prisoner of war. Israeli leaders must know that if anything, their actions endanger his life. Rather, its actions reflect a mixture of sheer panic and the realisation that Israel has run out of options to subdue the native population it has tried for so long and so unsuccessfully to crush and make disappear.

There is now nothing that Israel has not tried that the apartheid government of South Africa did not attempt when faced with the same situation. Except that Israel has gone far beyond the atrocities of the apartheid regime which never used assassination and extrajudicial execution so routinely and openly, which never established whites-only roads, and which never attempted to wall the black population into concrete ghettos.

Yet all of Israel's fanatical extremism is failing. It built high walls, and Palestinians tunnelled under them or sent largely harmless but terrifying rockets over them. They instituted checkpoints, but Palestinians get around them. They established racist laws to try to restrict the growth of the Palestinian population in occupied Jerusalem, but the Palestinian population continues to grow.

From the start of the Zionist project to turn an Arab, Muslim and Christian country into a European Jewish country, Zionist leaders calculated that the Arabs would simply melt away. Yet even after waves of ethnic cleansing, the "Jewish state" is faced with the unpalatable reality that there are not only more Palestinians in Palestine than ever before, but they once again outnumber the Jewish population. Israel is an ethnic minority regime trying to preserve its power and privilege against the will of the majority population.

Wise Israelis should, and probably do, recognise that this is a hopeless cause. All the might in the world will not suppress a people's will to be free, to live in dignity and to achieve equality. The capture of the soldier only underscores that; Palestinians know full well what Israel is capable of doing to them, but despite the calls for capitulation, there are indications that the vast majority of Palestinians opposes releasing the soldier unless Palestinian hostages and prisoners held by the occupation regime are also released.

The Israeli leaders may feel comfortable, even encouraged by either the silence or the soothing reactions to their aggression, expressing understanding of Israeli "concerns". They should avoid self-deception by looking beyond the whines of hypocrisy, appeasement, cowardice and intimidation. They should recognise that their deeds are taking them deeper into the abyss of immorality, lawlessness and violation of all norms of human behaviour, and that they are occupying the top place on the list of those who pose the greatest danger to world peace.

No nation can behave in this manner forever and be sure of respect or security, or even survival. How could this behaviour stop anyone from asking whether Israel is choosing the path of self-destruction.

Israel cannot endure missiles being fired into its cities eveyday.

It's that simple.

Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto

Israel cannot endure missiles being fired into its cities eveyday.
It's that simple.

Neither were the Pals able to tolerate a one-sided aggression as they had been from the time these land-grabbers were planted in their midst. That's why they started responding with these rockets. Isn't it a sign that they won't be in this situation forever? That the playing field will get more level whether the Israelis like it or not?

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/
Thursday, July 06, 2006
Run for cover - the Israelis are coming

Israeli forces and Palestinian gunmen fought throughout today in the biggest outbreak of violence since the abduction of an Israeli soldier almost two weeks ago. By this afternoon there were reports of the death of at least 10 Palestinians and an Israeli soldier. It was not clear if the dead Palestinians were fighters, civilians or both.
Does it even matter whether they're fighters or civilians? They're all targets. They're all fighting for their lives.

In the early hours of this morning Israeli forces took over settlements they evacuated 10 months ago in northern Gaza and pushed to the outskirts of Beit Lahiya. There has been little progress in international negotiations on the release of Corporal Gilad Shalit, 19, but Israel increased its offensive against Gazan militants after three Qassams rockets hit central Ashkelon, an area that was previously out of range.

At least two of the dead Palestinians were killed in a separate incident in Khan Yunis in the south of Gaza. Supported by navy gunboats and helicopter gunships, Israeli tanks and bulldozers were destroying orchards and crops before Palestinian gunmen began to attack them. Echoes of machine gun fire from tanks and helicopters reverberated around the northern Gaza town, as Israeli forces fired hundreds of thousands of bullets around them. The machine gun volleys were occasionally interrupted by the pop of an assault rifle and the occasional explosion.

Destroying orchards and crops??? Firing hundreds of thousands of bullets??? Are they possessed? If it wasn't happening before my eyes I wouldn't believe it.

Around 100 metres from Israeli positions two ambulances waited for the all clear to pick up casualties. Mohammad Farajalah, 24, an ambulance man, said they were aware of four casualties nearby but they were waiting for the Red Cross to negotiate safe passage for them, from the Israelis. "We were called out to a casualty and we found ourselves in front of a tank.There was shooting all around us and we had to wait there two hours until they allowed us to go. While we were there I saw a bulldozer tearing down trees, protected by three tanks," he said.
Unbelievable. Israelis aim to wipe Palestinians off the map.