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Old Apr 21, 2006, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdemon
... Enlarging the intake (out of scale) will improve the fan efficency? ...
Many edf's have enlarged intakes, here's my latest finished project which shows what I mean. I think now it looks too good to be flown ... Weight rtf 32oz with Kont 480-33, I think I'll let her hang in the garage though for a few weeks .


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Old Apr 21, 2006, 01:29 PM
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It's a classic isn't it?
Old Apr 21, 2006, 02:00 PM
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Like the old Ferrari parked in the garage. Not an every day flyer, but deffinitely a flyer for good weather days. Looks great Herb.

Justin
Old Apr 21, 2006, 02:28 PM
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Looks great Herb. I didn't even know Robbe made a Gnat. Hard to find their old kits.
Old Apr 21, 2006, 02:35 PM
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I LOVE the Folland Gnat, though I prefer the Yellowjacks colour scheme !

Keven.
Old Apr 22, 2006, 01:23 PM
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... Definitely a classic , the kit was unfortunately discontinued a few years back, but there's still a few kits out there, Robbe Gnat video as flown by DS last year.
Old Apr 22, 2006, 07:39 PM
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That is a sweet looking power unit !!!!Looks like blistering speed. My Robbe hunter is one of the fastest e-jets I have ! like to see a video of that one........
Old Apr 24, 2006, 02:27 AM
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Pictures from today's maiden (CG was too far back ) ... scoots along nicely though ...

Video here


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Old Apr 24, 2006, 05:46 AM
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Hi Herb,

Both very nice indeed, the little Gnat is real sweet.

Glad to hear someone has given the paper lay-up method a try. You are quite right Herb it does tend to need some stiffeners adding in the appropriate places. It can be made quite rigid by laying up more layers, but it then becomes a bit too heavy. I think it is better to stay thinner and lighter with a few stiffeners, next time I use it I think I will add them to the final layer.

Justin you will find the method described here. Post 27.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...7&page=2&pp=15

Cheers
Ron
Last edited by Ron Laden; Apr 24, 2006 at 08:18 AM.
Old Apr 24, 2006, 12:28 PM
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Thanks Ron, your discussion indeed encouraged me to go back to the paper/tissue and white glue method (which is also mentioned, besided low temp film, in the Robbe instructions).

The Gnat pictures - because of the re-sizing when you upload them ? - actually seem to show more of a rougher surface than it actually is.

I generally find paper & white glue on such small models far better than 1/2oz fiberglass, which tends to be a complete overkill. You can use a sheeted and fiberglasses wing to drive woodposts in the ground , who on earth is going to ever use such strength?

After sanding the bare foam a bit I used diluted elmer's white glue to apply the tissue. Then I applied several coats of Minwax Polycrylic with a brush (the can version works well to but is thinner) to get a smooth sandable surface. The Gnat's empty foam airframe was 6.3 oz before the paper covering, the finishing incl. paint added 2oz.

The finish is tamiya water based acrylic gloss red applied with an airbrush. The red arrows decals were printed on an inkjet printer with testors decal paper.


.
Old Apr 24, 2006, 01:15 PM
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Nicely done Herb!

I am also a proponent of paper/glue finishes.
Old Apr 24, 2006, 01:22 PM
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WHAT is that green stuff?
Old Apr 26, 2006, 01:35 AM
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Yes green soft grass , long days and absolutely fantastic weather lately.

I need a horse trailer though !! Can't leave the Kyosho Spitfire at home now - after it was clocked at 120mph with a radar gun last Sunday

.
Old Apr 26, 2006, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb
I need a horse trailer though !! Can't leave the Kyosho Spitfire at home now - after it was clocked at 120mph with a radar gun last Sunday

.
Herb
Do you have the Axi 4120/14 in your Spitfire? That's pretty fast. I got my GP Combat Corsair up to 116mph but that was with a lot of tailwind and a huge dive.
Old Apr 26, 2006, 02:29 AM
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I was told by the person with the $600 radar gun (mr. Chang aka c corumang) that the 120mph pass was at 90 degrees to the wind . I have a Hyperion 40-25 on 6S in it, here's a short video taken a few weeks ago by Todd.

A guy (Vinnie) with a Bearcat clocked at 119mph (not sure if upwind or downwind) the same day, the WeMotec MiG-15 at 129mph level upwind in a 15mph headwind.
Old Apr 26, 2006, 05:11 AM
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Wow! I hope my Axi is in the same ballpark, if not I'll have to get me a couple of the Hyperions. Sorry for getting off topic though.
Old May 15, 2006, 01:18 PM
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Mr Chang had the radar gun out again and he read 105 mph for the Gnat on an upwind pass. It sure goes nicely now on the 4S setup:

Robbe Gnat video (3 mins, 32MB)
Old Oct 16, 2007, 12:18 AM
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Finally got around to installing Springair pneumatic retracts in the F-86. I was getting tired of the fixed gear setup, it looked a bit silly in the air.

There was some serious WOOD under that wing skin, the dremel reached 3000 degrees at some point trying to vaporize it, have to ask Kyosho what kind of titanium forest this variety came from ...

The wing is quite thin so the installation wasn't perfect, I covered the retract mounts for now with some temporary silver tape until I find some better solution (and a matching color).

.
Old Oct 16, 2007, 12:20 AM
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There's very little space in the front too due to the full ducting I made two years ago.

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Old Oct 16, 2007, 12:26 AM
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Previously I had tested the seals on the Springairs, they hold 100 psi pressure for a month and a half (while I was in Japan) ...

The front steering setup isn't done yet, as the space is really tight in there, should be done in a few evenings. Need to place the steering servo between the two Kokam 3200 packs (both 1.5 years old, 50+ flights ).

.
Old Oct 16, 2007, 12:30 AM
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I flew it already three times this weekend, with no steering (fixed direction) on the front wheel ... It flies nicely and looks A LOT better in the air. I think it's around 5mph faster too, especially after a slight dive.

The weight increase from fixed to retracts must have been around 5oz or so, but I can't tell the difference except on takeoff. What's a few more oz on 1540 Watts .
Old Oct 16, 2007, 01:35 AM
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Nice work Herb, it looks great in the air.

Think I'll have to order up some Kokam 3200s for my birds, your kokams work better/longer than my other brands of lipos.

Bruce
Old Oct 18, 2007, 06:13 PM
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I finally managed to squeeze a steering servo in there, so the conversion is now more or less done. Or at least it's again in flyable condition

The airtank has to go under the canopy, as there's really nowhere else to put it.

The weight rtf is now at 75.9 oz or ca. 2.16 Kg, on ca. 1500 Watts of power on the two-year-old 6S (3S+3S) Kokam 3200's ...

On tyhe other hand my two new junk TP 5000 so called extreme 3S packs (date code august 2007) are going back to thunderpower after 3 (three) flights in the rafale ...


.
Old Oct 18, 2007, 09:13 PM
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Theres an almost NIB one for sale in the F/S fuel jet forum.
Old Oct 19, 2007, 01:06 PM
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Yes, and that video looks familiar too
Old Oct 19, 2007, 01:44 PM
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Herb,
Do you have stock invested in Probond?
Old Oct 19, 2007, 01:57 PM
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Herb,
I live in the Anaheim area and would love to see your jet fly. If you don't mind telling the location of your flying site? I have returned to RC after about a 30 yr. layoff and love the new electrics. Not ready for the jets yet, love the planes but don't like the noise. You sound like you licked some of that with your custom ducting.

Great looking jet!

Carl
Old Oct 19, 2007, 02:17 PM
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Carl,
They fly at Fairview Park next to Estancia HS.
It is the home of the Harbor Soaring Society.
Bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallsracing
Herb,
I live in the Anaheim area and would love to see your jet fly. If you don't mind telling the location of your flying site? I have returned to RC after about a 30 yr. layoff and love the new electrics. Not ready for the jets yet, love the planes but don't like the noise. You sound like you licked some of that with your custom ducting.

Great looking jet!

Carl
Old Oct 19, 2007, 02:28 PM
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nice herb!

Barry
Old Oct 19, 2007, 07:26 PM
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Bob,
Thanks for the info. I used to be a member of the HSS back in the mid 70's or so, when all we did was soaring. I will have to try and make it down there soon, the jets look fantastic.
Carl Walls
Old Oct 19, 2007, 07:31 PM
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Thanks for the comments ... the retract mounts were glued in with slow cure epoxy and microbaloons. Some areas are just silver painted kyosho wood? Could have done more dremel work in the wing wheel wells but there's too much risk of dremeling out to the other side of the wing . I only used some probond to secure the steering servo ply box.

We fly weekends (myself mostly Saturday afternoon after 1pm) at Fairview park, at the HSS site you are familiar with. Maybe we'll see you there sometime in the future...
Old Oct 19, 2007, 09:15 PM
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I'm working saturday.
Wll be there sunday.

Bruce
Old Mar 29, 2008, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Hi there,
I am building one of these and also plan to convert to electric.
I am using a wemotec midi fan 1750kv brushless hacker and 6cell li-po.

Did you duct the model internally? I am going to duct it behind the fan but dont know whether to duct in front and loose the landing gear.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

Lee
Hi Lee,

My Sabre flies with a Hacker B50 with a kv=2000, so it's a bit hotter than your wind, and I run it on 6S. I have run this setup for four years now and it hums as good as on the first day. Make sure you have plenty of motor cooling

The Midi ias bit big, but comparable to the Kyosho icdf fan it came with. I use a WeMoTec HW-620 which is 85mm diameter. That size fan was determined by measuring the intake area and taking it to be 82% fsa. for the fan.

I have full ducting in front and behind the fan, I have seen edfs fly without ducting and the performance was not so good ... a lot of precious LiPo energy wasted into heat trying to get the model to fly right. Admittedly doing the duct can be quite a bit of work.

.
Last edited by Herb; Mar 29, 2008 at 04:03 PM.
Old Jul 17, 2008, 03:18 PM
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Cloudrider

Herb of F-86 fame where for art thou


Hello Herb and all fellow readers, this is the only way I could see to contact you herb. Would there be anyway when you get a spare moment you could possibly supply me with a few dimensions or say an A4 outline of your fabulous Kyosho F-86 Front Duct cross section with nose removed and possibly the rear of the nose itself ? Both Cross section view. I loved the work you did on that model. I have managed to get hold of a second hand one without any infill of the nose at all. It was intended for IC. I'm not entirely sure why the front is totally open on my acquired model (maybe an earlier Import version). I would of course be happy to pay you for your time and postage or email etc. But having seen yours fly to great effect, I wanted to be in the right ball park. I notice you mention in your great notes back in 2005 that the Eff FSA of the moulded front intake was approx 37cm^2 yet the FSA of the WeMoTec was 43cm^2. You obviously had no trouble with this, just wondered if you took a similar approach to the Chris Gold (UK) using a smaller FSA at the Lip of the Intake Duct. ( I can't see any sign of this) Also are there any mods you'd consider to the F-86 if you were to start again with todays updated technology. Great many thanks no matter what the outcome, your work is truly Inspirational. Kindest regards Paul UK.
Old Jul 17, 2008, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudriderurt
... Would there be anyway when you get a spare moment you could possibly supply me with a few dimensions or say an A4 outline of your fabulous Kyosho F-86 Front Duct cross section with nose removed and possibly the rear of the nose itself ? Both Cross section view.
Well I am not sure I understand the question ... I used the standard Kyosho inlet. The ducting was made so it would mate perfectly (ok by figure of speech ) to the intake. So in other words there were no modifications to the Kyosho-supplied inlet ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudriderurt
I loved the work you did on that model. I have managed to get hold of a second hand one without any infill of the nose at all. It was intended for IC. I'm not entirely sure why the front is totally open on my acquired model (maybe an earlier Import version).
Mine was the IC version too, it's the only version as far as I know. If I understand you correctly (what language do you Brits speak anyhow ) you are saying there's no ducting on yours. Of course, that's the way the ICDF kit is ... you have to make your own ducting, unfortunately

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudriderurt
I would of course be happy to pay you for your time and postage or email etc. But having seen yours fly to great effect, I wanted to be in the right ball park. I notice you mention in your great notes back in 2005 that the Eff FSA of the moulded front intake was approx 37cm^2 yet the FSA of the WeMoTec was 43cm^2. You obviously had no trouble with this, just wondered if you took a similar approach to the Chris Gold (UK) using a smaller FSA at the Lip of the Intake Duct. ( I can't see any sign of this)
The size of fan was determined by the Kyosho F-86 intake size, which I measured... From there I determined that a 90mm fan (eg MidiFan), which some had used, was inefficient. That's why I opted for the smaller diam HW-620 fan (85mm). In any case the MidiFan is too big to fit any other equipment like batts esc etc. in the fuse, with ducting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudriderurt
Also are there any mods you'd consider to the F-86 if you were to start again with todays updated technology. Great many thanks no matter what the outcome, your work is truly Inspirational. Kindest regards Paul UK.
Thanks for the kind words ... The F-86 is a great flier and I still fly it off grass on a regular basis, on the original setup (6S 3200 Lipos) at ca. 1600W, with Springair 602 retracts. Others who have flown it love it too.

In my opinion 80-90mm edfs is the smallest size you want to attempt to fit good quality air retracts in, anything smaller and you end up in grossly overweight fantasyland.

The only slight problem with it is that it's really cramped in there with batts, Hacker 77A esc, airvalve + servo, retracts + nosesteering servo. But it works. On larger models access and therefore maintenance is easier.
Old Jul 17, 2008, 08:40 PM
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Hi Herb, many thanks for the speedy assistance. Apologies for my conflicting use of the Kyosho wording. I fully appreciate theres no Ducting supplied Herb, but your model (all models as sold probably) seem to have the lovely top lipped front Intake at the nose. This seems to remove and reveal a smaller dia oval intake moulded into the front of the nose. Sadly my model has probably had it's entire front lip cut off . So the only intake at the front of it's fuzz is basically the outermost Glassfibre skin. I will be aiming to reproduce and return all the original features and hence get as close as I can to your setup. Would be glad to supply a pic if you think it might help? But again appreciate you finding the time to reply. Kind regards Paul.
Old Jul 17, 2008, 11:38 PM
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Yes I think a picture would help so I can understand what's left of the nose on yours ...

But most likely you will have to go with some sort of oval - shaped FG (you Brits call it GRP) tube mated to the intake.
Old Jul 18, 2008, 05:44 AM
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Fully agree Herb, I've done a fair bit of FG work. So that's no real problem (famous last words!). The measured distance from front of canopy cutout too the front top edge of whats left of the nose is approx 98mm. So a basic outline of what your sabre nose does from there forwards would be a real help. Picture attached hopefully to help us both get onto the same page. Many thanks again. Much appreciated, cheers Paul.
Old Jul 18, 2008, 01:40 PM
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Well Cloudriderurt you could get some Dow blue styrofoam (hopefully you can find 2" thick or 4" thick pieces) or failing that multilayered depron (glue the layers together to build a block big enough) or even white EPS foam and glue it to the front of the F-86 and carve/sand a new nose piece. Use quality 3 views or photographs to get the side shape correct and the nose opening close to where you want. A side view photograph or 3 view of the nose enlarged on a zerox or printed on the pc using a program called tileprint (lets you scale a bitmap to a desired size and print it out) could give you a template for carving the foam. After that adding in inlet tube to the fan with thick paper cardstock or fiberglass sheet or 1/64 ply could be made to feed the fan.
Old Jul 18, 2008, 02:09 PM
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Ok Paul here's a few pictures for you ... As Ed says you don't have to redo the intake exactly as the Kyosho one, you could improve on it maybe.

But going with the Kyosho design is a safe choice, and there are obvious constraints from the fuse diameter, intake size & nose length etc.

Hope this helps, hwh

.
Old Jul 18, 2008, 04:25 PM
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Cloudrider

Many thanks


Hello Ed,Herb. Want to thank you both for the time you have taken to help me with the details. This will really help me move forward. It's great to see the modelling spirit being kept alive so effectively by such keen enthusiasts. Truly appreciate your valuable time guys, kindest regards from the UK! Cheers Paul.
Old Jul 21, 2008, 02:43 PM
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Glad I was able to help ... Let us know how it goes
Old Aug 17, 2008, 02:22 PM
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Ready ......


....
Last edited by eipper; Sep 26, 2008 at 06:22 PM.
Old Sep 28, 2008, 03:21 PM
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Kyosho F 86


Hi Herb,

I have an option of getting the Kyosho F86 from a fellow modeler who has it sitting in his warehouse. I have read your thread and was looking for the HW 620 fan , it seems these are hard to find. Is there any other fan that I can use. I can get the Hacker Motor that is no issue.

The plane as it stands is a .15 glow model and I intend to build a duct like you did but only if I can source the fan.

Thanks in advance


Mahir
Old Sep 29, 2008, 11:35 AM
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Have you contacted Oliver @ WeMoTec www.wemotec.com to see if he can get you an HW-620 fan?

I would think the MidiFan is just a bit too big for it. Apart from the intake and outlet issue, it would leave very little place for the other components esp. the batteries.

Another option would be some other fan, in the 75mm to 85 mm range (the MiniFan makes no sense in the F-86 as it's too small a fan). In practice the possible choices would include the HW-620 (85mm), HW-609 (75mm), the DS 44 (85mm, pricy), or the Haoye fans about which I have no experience (do they wobble vibrate and fly apart as soon as you put a decent motor in them?).

Just for reference, my F-86 Sabre now flies with Springair 602's on ca. 1400 W with a Hacker B50 and 6S Flightpower evo 30C 3200's; I flew it three times this weekend and she's still a crowd pleaser. Low weight, low drag and good handling make it a fast plane.

In the pictures below I gave it a bit of armorall to bring out the shine after three years of flying


.
Last edited by Herb; Sep 30, 2008 at 09:52 PM.
Old Oct 15, 2008, 12:35 AM
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Hi Herb,

Thanks for your reply, I was away for two weeks and did not see your reply. I am looking for the fan and will update once I have something that will fit. I like the color scheme so much that i will be painting a New Alfa Sabre , let see how that turns out.

Mahir


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