Thread Tools
Dec 06, 2014, 10:32 PM
Registered User
Nice to see this thread about Schneider Trophy planes has resurfaced.
Odisseo-
If you don't already have a copy, I would recommend the book "Schneider Trophy Seaplanes and Flying Boats. Victors, Vanquished and Visions" by Ralph Pegram.
It has a couple of pages and a 3-view of the S51. It is a great resource if you like this era of aircraft.
Glad to see more of these beautiful planes being build. I have been working on a Bernard HV40 for a while now. Still haven't flown it.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68062
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Dec 07, 2014, 02:13 AM
Registered User
Odisseo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by B_Honeydew View Post
Nice to see this thread about Schneider Trophy planes has resurfaced.
Odisseo-
If you don't already have a copy, I would recommend the book "Schneider Trophy Seaplanes and Flying Boats. Victors, Vanquished and Visions" by Ralph Pegram.
It has a couple of pages and a 3-view of the S51. It is a great resource if you like this era of aircraft.
Glad to see more of these beautiful planes being build. I have been working on a Bernard HV40 for a while now. Still haven't flown it.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68062
Thank you very much! Amazon still have 5 copy....now 4 😊
Since there are very few info about the S51 I'm completing the gap of info using some pictures with the drawings of the S19 and 21, build more or less in the same time. I hope to do a good work and reach as possible a details level enough good to build a full scale.
I'm now waiting DevFus and DevWing software's (wich should be a great implement). www.profili2.com
I will post the drawings as soon they're ready!
Dec 07, 2014, 07:50 AM
Registered User
Glad I can help. I believe anybody that is interested in the Schneider racers is familiar with the artwork of Mr. Ozawa in Japan. He is very detailed in his artwork of these machines. Look through some of his blog posts and you will be amazed at the detail.
His blog has several references to the S.51, he may be a resource for you too.
http://doz.jp/wordpress/blog/category/savoia-s-51/
Dec 07, 2014, 09:28 AM
Registered User
mistairjoe's Avatar

problems with drawings


So this is the third version of the rudder/elevator that has come to light and that is the problem with trying to recreate a scale model. The three view just posted does not match with Ozzawa's image. The rudder is different and so is the elevator.The funny thing is that he shows this same book on his site. The truth is that so far there aren't any good photos to go by.
Dec 07, 2014, 11:25 AM
Registered User
Hideaki Ozawa made his drawings several years ago (I think I have seen them 5-6 years ago); Ralph Pegram's book is relative new. I have contact to Ralph; he did help me with both the S.21 and S.65 drawings as well as with a friends Supermarine S.6, for he sent us factory drawings.
Problem with all italian racers of this time is, there are very few photos, not to speak of good photos! The first well documented racer is the Macchi M.33, where many good pictures survived in USA. From what do you want to make a drawing off, if you have no documentation or photographs? It is believed that the S.51 had different elevator shapes; nobody has a photo, so what is tru? Which rudder shape is true? Who will judge of the wing-clip which is believed they made for the record attempt?

But all this is marginal, for if you have to change size and angle of the tipfloats you don't have a scalemodel anymore! And you will have to chenge them if you want have an useful flyingboat...

Regards,
Kuni
Dec 07, 2014, 12:55 PM
Registered User
mistairjoe's Avatar
You are right Kuni about designing a scale model of this period. I was mainly interested in the different tail and wing design non of which agree with the three or four drawings that I have seen so far. I will just go ahead with my instincts and what I think looks good.
Dec 07, 2014, 01:10 PM
Registered User
This way you will certainly produce a nice model!
I had an argument with Ralph regarding the engine nacelle of my S.21: he disagreed the shape I chose. I layed my plans close to the Kavelaars-drawing, which shows a short but high nacelle. Ralph sent me drawings of the engine they chose then, and I tried to install her into my nacelle. It was close... so Ralph P. chose a much longer nacelle for his 3-view, I built the short one shown in the Kavellars-3-view. Which one of us is right now? And who cares? My model flies fine, and is two times cup winner!

One thing I would NOT do: design parts while relenting on other types of the same era. They did much experimental work then, and the S.51 is an in-between-plane, which cannot be traced down to the constructural work of Conflenti, who did the earlier Savoia planes, and began the S.51, nor can it be traced down full to Marchettis work. So it is unique, and should be seen so. It also was Savoia's last flying boat racer. They surely had their reasons not to set her in 1923; I don't believe it was only an engines question. There were enough foreign engines they could have chosen...

Regards,
Kuni
Dec 09, 2014, 10:32 PM
mcg
mcg
Registered User
In an Italian book about the Schneider cup races I found 2 photos of the S.51. One is identical to the photo in Pegram's book. The other, a SIDE view, i will scan and post tomorrow. You already have it, it is posted early in this thread, but another scan might turn up another detail.
Last edited by mcg; Dec 09, 2014 at 10:51 PM.
Dec 10, 2014, 01:45 AM
Registered User
Odisseo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg View Post
In an Italian book about the Schneider cup races I found 2 photos of the S.51. One is identical to the photo in Pegram's book. The other, a SIDE view, i will scan and post tomorrow. You already have it, it is posted early in this thread, but another scan might turn up another detail.
This would be great thank you!
Dec 10, 2014, 01:54 AM
Registered User
Odisseo's Avatar
these are the four view schemes that I found relevant









Now let's make a consideration , it seems there are no patterns dating back to the original design of the aircraft . I conclude that all this documentation is no longer true or more correct than what we could offer us. Those info are the result of what we are doing here , a search based on very few images and using common sense. If I do not find other info soon I will make my own version based on what I have . Anywayit will be as truthful as the other patterns found on the net. (E= MC2)
Dec 10, 2014, 02:00 AM
Registered User
Odisseo's Avatar
btw, found also this image, not true, another relative version of reality

Dec 10, 2014, 08:39 AM
Registered User
mistairjoe's Avatar
Thanks for the black and white photo. It explains questions I had such as the rear deck is flat not semi round.
Dec 10, 2014, 09:11 AM
Registered User
Odisseo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistairjoe View Post
Thanks for the black and white photo. It explains questions I had such as the rear deck is flat not semi round.
You'r welcome, but i don't think it's a real photo (i think it's more a rendering). Unlucky i couldn't find from where it come.
But yes, it help to understand some details about the S51 Type B (as shown in the three view I posted above (the red one, wich is the type i'm going to reproduce)
Dec 10, 2014, 10:34 AM
mcg
mcg
Registered User

page from MC 72 & Coppa Schneider


Here is a page from MC 72 & Coppa Schneider, a two volume set by Igino Coggi. I found it in a bookstore in Bologna in 1987. The page shows two familiar photos of the S.51, one at the top and one at the bottom. Here is a translation into English of the photos' caption:

Above photo shows the beached S.51 at the S.I.A.I seaplane base at Sant 'Anna (on Lake Maggiore). This image shows the silhouette of this splendid machine designed by Alessandro Marchetti. Compared to the next photo, below, this image also shows the unusual design of the tail planes of the initial configuration.

The (early) rudder does not extend (forward) above the vertical stabilizer, while the design plan of the horizontal stabilizer has no family relationship with that of the final configuration, which was a rectilinear plane with rounded ends,.

This aircraft was the only racer among those deployed in Naples in 1922, to be able to counter effectively the Sea Lion II of Biard. Its promise was (finally) demonstrated at the end of the same year when it carried Alexander Passaleva to the international record speed for seaplanes at over 280 km / h.

------------------
The upper photo was taken at Sant' Anna. Here is a link to a description, in English, of this seaplane base.

http://www.ronaldv.nl/abandoned/airf...ia/varese.html
Last edited by mcg; Dec 11, 2014 at 07:09 AM.
Dec 10, 2014, 10:41 AM
mcg
mcg
Registered User
Here is a translation into English of some of the text's description of the S.51:

After the disappearance of the S.50, the S.51 remained. It represented the end of another, very different (design) path pursued by Marchetti.

The S.51 had a narrow hull-fuselage, just over 9 meters long, with a deeply set cockpit and pilot seat. The fuselage's streamlining was broken only by a glass windscreen. On top of the fuselage rested a sesquiplane whose lower wing was just 4 meters in span, versus the 10 meter span of the upper wing. The stub lower wing was essentially a streamlined support beam between the fuselage and the lateral floats, which were also extremely well streamlined.

The hull was wooden, the wing was a metallic structure. The nacelle of the Hispano Suiza Italia engine, with a two-blade pusher propeller, bridged the central trunk of the upper wing. Extremely clean aerodynamically was also the (wing truss) bracing of this machine. The S.51 based its qualities of speed less upon the (moderate) installed power of 300 hp than upon its maximized finesse.

The S.51 was painted red and marked with the race number 8 and with its civil registration, I BAIU (which, the author remarks, is not actually documented in the photographs that have been found of this machine)

The S.51 was entrusted to a pilot of great skill and valor, Alessandro Passaleva. He was a military pilot-instructor at the seaplane base at Sant 'Anna. Passaleva would ultimately collect over 50 world records for flying boats and landplanes. His long career as a test pilot for SIAI was truncated in 1941 by a tragic accident with a SM.84.

So this was the pair waiting at the starting line for Biard and his Supermarine Sea Lion II: the S.51 and Alessandro Passaleva.
Last edited by mcg; Dec 10, 2014 at 09:51 PM.


Quick Reply
Message:

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Savoia S65 schneider trophy racer Kuni Scale Kit/Scratch Built 222 Jan 01, 2021 10:25 AM
Schneider Trophy Racing Martin Irvine Scale Kit/Scratch Built 0 Sep 22, 2005 08:48 PM