What the Heck Wednesday - Havoc XE Lawn Dart

This week on What the Heck Wednesday we have a video of a Havoc XE that undergoes a repair and gets back in the air......briefly.

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Severe Crash Damage

This week on What the Heck Wednesday we have a video of a Havoc XE that undergoes a repair and gets back in the air......briefly. RC Plane Addict does a great job of reattaching the nose on his Havoc and goes back out to the field for some fun. It flys and seems to be working well, but at one point he says it dropped a wing which I assume means it tip stalled and rolled over, but he was able to recover and keep flying. A few minutes later, he is getting ready to bring it in for a landing. On the downwind leg, it "drops a wing" again and then spirals down to a hard nose first landing. It did not end well for the plane.

It this just a simple case of a tip stall gone bad? What else could have caused this crash?

If you have a video of a weird or entertaining crash and would like to be featured on What the Heck Wednesday, please send me a PM with your submission.

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Dec 15, 2021, 12:37 PM
Wait...Say again?
Note the windsock. Pretty stiff breeze. His ground speed was OK but, when he turned base he was flying downwind and his airspeed was just way too low. Stalled and couldn't recover.
Dec 15, 2021, 01:07 PM
Registered User
Possibly too much flap deflection for this type of wing? It went in after the "landing" flaps were deployed.
Dec 15, 2021, 04:48 PM
Registered User
It happened after he deployed flaps.

Likely one flap didn't come down, which made it go into a roll. this was a problem with the initial wing connectors on this plane.

I have this plane and it has happened to me. I was just quick enough to catch it.
Dec 15, 2021, 08:00 PM
Registered User
Angelo's Avatar
He almost lost it a couple of times before that. Orientation problems?
Dec 15, 2021, 10:24 PM
Paper Plane Scratch Builder
Lufo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by N74463
Note the windsock. Pretty stiff breeze. His ground speed was OK but, when he turned base he was flying downwind and his airspeed was just way too low. Stalled and couldn't recover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandetlol
It happened after he deployed flaps.

Likely one flap didn't come down, which made it go into a roll. this was a problem with the initial wing connectors on this plane.

I have this plane and it has happened to me. I was just quick enough to catch it.
Yep...that and he talked to much instead of flying the plane. He almost lost it previously on a base leg, I figured then that would be how the crash would happen. Carving a base leg with the wind across the wings, one wing down, flaps and low speed. I probably would have come in lower and closer to the threshold and put in flaps on the final. Work the wind and wing to my advantage.
Dec 17, 2021, 02:46 PM
Registered User
Zeeb's Avatar
Take off flaps are entirely appropriate for windy conditions. The slow the model down a bit while adding a bunch more lift. That's why they are used on take off.....

Full flaps in high wind is another story. Short final if at all since any cross wind will eat your lunch on final with a swept wing airplane, they are NOT the same as straight wing stuff to land. Next part of that is quit flying patterns with model jets, either EDF or Turbine. I found that out the hard way with a Turbine powered Elite Aerosports Shockwave. If the downwind to base doesn't get you which worked for me, the base to final will get you which is where I lost the Shockwave. Inboard wing stalls, model flips on it's back and goes straight in.

If you watch guys land Turbines, the fly what a lot of us Full Scale guys call a "Forrest Service" approach which looks exactly like a carrier approach. Constant airspeed, constant bank angle producing a nice 180 degree descending turn, chop the throttle on short final (or fly it all the way to the deck in the case of the Navy) and plant that puppy on the end of the runway crabbed into the wind and do not try to straighten it out until it's on the runway. Cross controlling a swept wing aircraft be it Full Scale or model on short final will always bite you in the butt..... lol
Last edited by Zeeb; Dec 17, 2021 at 02:58 PM.
Dec 19, 2021, 05:47 PM
Bus Driver
Tmab11's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeb
Take off flaps are entirely appropriate for windy conditions. The slow the model down a bit while adding a bunch more lift. That's why they are used on take off.....

Full flaps in high wind is another story. Short final if at all since any cross wind will eat your lunch on final with a swept wing airplane, they are NOT the same as straight wing stuff to land. Next part of that is quit flying patterns with model jets, either EDF or Turbine. I found that out the hard way with a Turbine powered Elite Aerosports Shockwave. If the downwind to base doesn't get you which worked for me, the base to final will get you which is where I lost the Shockwave. Inboard wing stalls, model flips on it's back and goes straight in.

If you watch guys land Turbines, the fly what a lot of us Full Scale guys call a "Forrest Service" approach which looks exactly like a carrier approach. Constant airspeed, constant bank angle producing a nice 180 degree descending turn, chop the throttle on short final (or fly it all the way to the deck in the case of the Navy) and plant that puppy on the end of the runway crabbed into the wind and do not try to straighten it out until it's on the runway. Cross controlling a swept wing aircraft be it Full Scale or model on short final will always bite you in the butt..... lol
Id argue a longer stabilized straight in approach is a lot safer. That and also crabbing into the wind to track straight down the runway to prevent drift. Then in the flare using rudder to straighten out the nose and prevent sideloading the gear. Its how full scale jets are flown.
Dec 19, 2021, 08:07 PM
Registered User
Zeeb's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmab11
Id argue a longer stabilized straight in approach is a lot safer. That and also crabbing into the wind to track straight down the runway to prevent drift. Then in the flare using rudder to straighten out the nose and prevent sideloading the gear. Its how full scale jets are flown.
You've never seen Forrest Service pilots land on short mountainous strips have you? I've flown in and out of some of those strips and a "long stabilized approach" is not possible at most of them. Long stabilized approaches work as most airliners are on the ILS, not flying patterns so it's a straight in approach all the way.

Now you want to talk models? Watch Ali Machinchy fly a turbine model and land it. He does a gear pass, turns into a downwind and abeam the numbers, he starts a tight 180 degree descending turn to final which he exits just above the end of the runway. If there is a crosswind, you land crabbed and straighten it out on the runway as I said.

You are espousing a theory not based on experience, just observation.

I am also a Licensed Commercial, Multi-Engine, Instrument rated Pilot as well as a Licensed A&P Mechanic. So I've been around Full Scale longer than I've been playing with RC models.
Dec 19, 2021, 08:18 PM
Bus Driver
Tmab11's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeb
You've never seen Forrest Service pilots land on short mountainous strips have you? I've flown in and out of some of those strips and a "long stabilized approach" is not possible at most of them. Long stabilized approaches work as most airliners are on the ILS, not flying patterns so it's a straight in approach all the way.

Now you want to talk models? Watch Ali Machinchy fly a turbine model and land it. He does a gear pass, turns into a downwind and abeam the numbers, he starts a tight 180 degree descending turn to final which he exits just above the end of the runway. If there is a crosswind, you land crabbed and straighten it out on the runway as I said.

You are espousing a theory not based on experience, just observation.

I am also a Licensed Commercial, Multi-Engine, Instrument rated Pilot as well as a Licensed A&P Mechanic. So I've been around Full Scale longer than I've been playing with RC models.
Sure, works great in a forest service plane. Done the same no issues.

Sure plenty of pilots CAN do short approaches, but with the pilot mentioned in the video and the vast majority are gonna run into issues. This dosent mean an ILS long final, just something long enough that power and pitch are stabilized. Especially in windy conditions as the turn to final has a dramatic decrease in ground speed and can lead to all sort of issues on a gusty day.

No need to throw ratings around but since you wanted to..... ATP multi/single. CFI/ CFII/ MEI, comm sailplane and over 5000 hours in swept wing turbine aircraft. So, experience and theory...

cheers
Dec 19, 2021, 09:13 PM
Registered User
Zeeb's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmab11
Sure, works great in a forest service plane. Done the same no issues.

Sure plenty of pilots CAN do short approaches, but with the pilot mentioned in the video and the vast majority are gonna run into issues. This dosent mean an ILS long final, just something long enough that power and pitch are stabilized. Especially in windy conditions as the turn to final has a dramatic decrease in ground speed and can lead to all sort of issues on a gusty day.

No need to throw ratings around but since you wanted to..... ATP multi/single. CFI/ CFII/ MEI, comm sailplane and over 5000 hours in swept wing turbine aircraft. So, experience and theory...

cheers
How many hours you got logged in Turbine powered swept wing models???????
Dec 19, 2021, 09:47 PM
Bus Driver
Tmab11's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeb
How many hours you got logged in Turbine powered swept wing models???????
Plenty enough.
Dec 19, 2021, 10:20 PM
Paper Plane Scratch Builder
Lufo's Avatar
Well, I don't approach the ratings or skill level you two have but...I have seen enough and been in enough landings to know that both work. Depends on the situation. Short hover/harrier approaches reduce ground fire from the enemy, it also gets you into an area if you are in a hurry (fighting a forest fire) and need to land, load and exit quickly.

I would rather a commercial liner take the long approach to be honest. I have seen many vids on YT showing the GA landing in high winds. The pilot crabs in and straightens out at the last moment, usually when the wheels are on the pavement or just about to touch the pavement.
Dec 19, 2021, 11:13 PM
Registered User
Zeeb's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tmab11
Plenty enough.
Big on bragging, low on proof....
Dec 20, 2021, 09:27 AM
Registered User
Come on...,this is supposed to be a fun thread not a pi$$ing contest.


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