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May 23, 2021, 05:44 PM
fix-n-fly
Thread OP
Discussion

Old Time Stunt


I've been reading a bit about Old Time Stunt and would like some recommendations concerning .35 size kits before I go spend money on something that may be too much to start with. I've got some building skills as I've built a few control line planes (mostly profile but one Nobler (RIP)) and currently have a Goldberg Shoestring Stunter, but will have to learn a lot to perform the OTS pattern as currently I can fly level and perform inside loops.

I've been to the Brodak site and they have some nice OTS planes but recommendations would be appreciated.
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May 23, 2021, 07:17 PM
Old Timer
The Kiwi's Avatar
What engine do you have you intend using for it? The iconic old Fox 35 was not yet the most popular choice in 1952, when the last of the (technically legal) OTS designs were current (note that although Brodak includes the Firecat, I am almost certain it didn't appear until a few years after 1952). Many of the old planes were flown with spark ignition 60s, including the Viking, Super Zilch, and some other good old planes.

A "modern" 35 is a much more powerful choice than a Fox 35, and is better able to fly with the requisite silencer attached (from which the Fox takes severe hits to its power and its ability to cool itself). If you have one of those old Fox engines to run with a muffler, choose from models such as the Vampire and Super Clown, in the 40" span category.

(Edited: Only the Brodak 40 is currently sold, new, at a reasonable cost, in the "35" class, and most fliers have found them a very good choice for planes in the Barnstormer, Viking and Go Devil class of OTS planes, although adding the complication of coupled flaps simply isn't necessary for an OTS model, really. )


Kiwi
Last edited by The Kiwi; May 24, 2021 at 09:32 AM.
May 23, 2021, 08:21 PM
fix-n-fly
Thread OP
Hi Kiwi - thank you for the response.

All I have right now in the way of engines is a OS FP .25 with a stock muffler mounted to the Shoestring. - very nose heavy. I realize I'd probably need a tongue muffler if I was to use this engine. I may look into a used OS FP or LA 40 or maybe a new Brodak engine.

I like the Viking, Vampire, and Zilch - just not sure the BMJR kits of the Zilch at Brodak would be accepted by OTS since each of the three seem to be variants of the original. If you know differently about the Zilch, please let me know.

Bottom line - I'm looking for a set up that would be fairly easy to work with as I probably will be teaching myself a lot on how to do the stunts. So if that means I'd be better off buying a new engine for a plane that would be easier to work with, I can do that.
May 24, 2021, 05:09 AM
Registered User
gene6029's Avatar
There are lots of models out there to choose from to build for Old Time Stunt. Since you are learning the stunts, i would build something very easy to build and repair. A Ringmaster would be an easy place to start. I fly OTS myself and have a Ringmaster in my fleet of OTS models. It will do the entire pattern with ease. There are lots of engines that will work on the ringmaster, including the FP 25 if you build it light. I'd choose to stay with a modern engine until you learn the pattern. Get something that is reliable and easy to run. I'd also stay with a non flapped model at first. I will send you a PM .....Gene

PS, heres my Ringmaster, OS .35s... and Humongous, OS .46La
Last edited by gene6029; May 24, 2021 at 06:12 AM. Reason: Add 2 pictures
May 24, 2021, 11:07 AM
Registered User
ama353's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gene6029
There are lots of models out there to choose from to build for Old Time Stunt. Since you are learning the stunts, i would build something very easy to build and repair. A Ringmaster would be an easy place to start. I fly OTS myself and have a Ringmaster in my fleet of OTS models. It will do the entire pattern with ease. There are lots of engines that will work on the ringmaster, including the FP 25 if you build it light. I'd choose to stay with a modern engine until you learn the pattern. Get something that is reliable and easy to run. I'd also stay with a non flapped model at first. I will send you a PM .....Gene

PS, heres my Ringmaster, OS .35s... and Humongous, OS .46La
What Gene wrote.

Your FP .25 is great for now, build a simple non-flapped profile and get out and fly and then fly some more.

When you're comfortable flying the pattern, THEN decide the next step.

Dennis
May 24, 2021, 01:15 PM
fix-n-fly
Thread OP
ama353 - Sounds like a ringmaster .19 - .35 ringmaster is in my immediate future I like the fact it is a profile fuselage and will be quicker to build.
May 26, 2021, 09:25 AM
Intermediate Multi
Trisquire's Avatar
Quote:
..............I'd also stay with a non flapped model at first...........
Is that to reduce the complexity?
May 26, 2021, 02:54 PM
fix-n-fly
Thread OP
I think I saw somewhere in the OTS rules there used to be additional points given in contests for flying a non-flapped model? Reducing complexity is good. A few decades ago I built a Nobler and the flaps were an added challenge to get set up right. Unfortunately that model didn't last long.
May 27, 2021, 06:12 AM
Registered User
gene6029's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fix-n-fly
I think I saw somewhere in the OTS rules there used to be additional points given in contests for flying a non-flapped model? Reducing complexity is good. A few decades ago I built a Nobler and the flaps were an added challenge to get set up right. Unfortunately that model didn't last long.

Yes, there is a 10 point bonus for a non flapped model and additional 10 points if it is a spark powered engine.......Gene
May 27, 2021, 11:22 PM
Registered User
downunder's Avatar

flapped or non-flapped


Quote:
Originally Posted by Trisquire
Is that to reduce the complexity?
Most profile fus (like the ringmaster) have a very short tail moment which isn't good with flaps. I remember back in the early '60's learning to fly stunts and had this rather nice little model that flew very well with its short tail moment. Then I heard about flaps so added them. Oops, first flight and tried a loop but it gained height quite slowly and rose like a helicopter . The problem, as I later learned, was that flaps pitch the nose down while the elevator is pitching the nose up! A much longer tail moment is needed for more elevator leverage to counter the pitch down from the flaps and to make use of the extra lift given by the flaps.

Another thing I found out much later on with a full on competitive stunter. I used a control setup that gave flap movement anywhere from zero movement to around 30 degrees. On initial flights I set it to zero (effectively a non flapped model) where square turns were like a combat model and control loads at the handle were very light but rather sensitive to handle movement. However my control setup also allowed for independent elevator movement so I began reducing elevator travel until handle movement became comfortable. I ended up with 17 degrees up and down movement but square turns remained just as sharp. Now the only problem was a slight trace of a stall, particularly the last turn of a triangle which, being closest to the ground, was a bit of a worry . So start adding flap movement for more lift which I did in small increments until any trace of stall was gone. For my model, all that was needed was 5 degrees. The thing that I learned was that, by using that very small added flap movement, the loading at the handle increased by a guesstimated 3x that from no flap setting. That really surprised me!
May 28, 2021, 08:18 AM
Still the "Pro"-crastinator...
Steve85's Avatar
downunder,

I've never flown a model with flaps and so have never really thought my way through how they work. Your description makes it all clear!

Steve
May 28, 2021, 10:50 AM
fix-n-fly
Thread OP
Great explanation - Downunder. Seems like a little deflection goes a long way where flaps are involved.
Jun 21, 2021, 08:41 PM
Old Timer
The Kiwi's Avatar
Nearly a month has passed now. I always felt that the Ringmaster was handicapped by so many aspects of the design, especially the terribly weak wing structure that loves to come apart in the middle with the slightest excuse! I think you need two similar models, so a crash doesn't mean you are grounded entirely during the repairs. The Super Clown is another of the designs by the same man as the Ringmaster, Matt Kania, a little smaller, a lot stronger through the center of the wing.

In spite of the suggestion to use coupled flaps from the original PDQ plans, I never saw one made that way that flew as well as a Super Clown with fixed flaps. I also liked Magicians better with fixed flaps, unless the stab was moved all the way back in / on the fuselage, but that's a "Classic" bird, not OTS. The two Sterling "Combat" kits, P-51 and Yak 9, also flew better with fixed flaps than with coupled flaps, again, in spite of the plans. And they qualify for OTS. They are just slightly too small for a 25-35 engine, being better sized for a Veco Series 200, 19BB.

What did you end up getting started on?


Kiwi
Last edited by The Kiwi; Jun 22, 2021 at 02:16 PM.
Jun 22, 2021, 11:57 PM
fix-n-fly
Thread OP
Hi Kiwi - I bought a Vintage Performance Model Airplanes laser cut Ringmaster. Unfortunately work has slowed my progress in that I have the kit, but have not had time to build. I am a bit concerned about the wing now because I decided to go electric instead of glow and the wing has a cut out in the leading edge to accommodate the battery length in the fuselage. Hopefully the application of some 1 inch fiberglass tape could help with any weaknesses in the wing?

I expect to have a few crashes while learning so as you say it may take a few kits to get the pattern to at least recognizable although probably not pretty. I have seen the Super Clown available from Brodak so maybe that is something I'll try if the Ringmaster doesn't go so well.

I have a couple of other .19 - .35 sized kits but I don't think they would qualify for OTS - Goldberg Buster, Goldberg Flying Tiger, Top Flite Super Flite Streak, and an old worn Goldberg Shoestring Stunter.

Thanks for the advice and the follow up - much appreciated.
Jun 23, 2021, 07:29 AM
Old Timer
The Kiwi's Avatar
December 31, 1952 is quite a long while ago. I was twelve then. AFAIK, the Vintage Performance Ringmaster isn't OTS qualified, although it doesn't have the weak center joints that fall apart in the S-1 Sterling type. PDQ also had the Circus King available, if anyone made a kit for it today. I don't know how far back the Veco Tomahawk went. That was my own "first big model" with a .29, probably in 1953.

Those didn't have the center joints, but were quite fragile. Instead of just splitting in half, the outboard wings in my first two shattered. I combined inboard wings into a single plane, and that lash-up survived for another 20 years.


Kiwi


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