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Nov 21, 2021, 03:25 AM
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I didn't think about the bends with the carbon fiber. My brain wasn't working at the moment. Yeah you can't make that stuff bend. Yikes about the dust. I did my cutting out in the garage with a dremel, and didn't even worry about the dust from it. Didn't know it was an irritant. That makes twice I've done something stupid. A couple years ago, I bought some sidewalk/driveway marker poles for snow, made out of fiberglass rods. I wasn't using them for the snowplows, but rather for me with my snow blower, so I didn't want them sticking up in the air 4 feet. So [email protected]$$ that I am, I got out my chop saw (mounted on a rolling table), put the whole stack in my hand, And tried to cut through it. Big noises, lots of flying rods, backlash, my hand getting beat to death by fiberglass rods and rods going everywhere. When the dust settled, my good winter gloves were in shreds, my hand cut and bruised, the fiberglass rods shredded and broken, and the dust got into everything. I ended up pitching the shirt I was wearing, and the pants, and the gloves. My hand hurt for two weeks. I cut the carbon fiber with a metal grinding cut-off wheel for the Dremel, and it zipped right through it, saw a little dust (pun intended) but I just vacuumed it up. Didn't notice any ill effects. My vac has an actual HEPA filter in it. I guess I got lucky.

There has to be an answer between carbon fiber and aluminum. I'll keep messing with it. I'm thinking plastics of some kind, maybe laminated. Weight is always the issue.

Dubro makes that one white plastic looking landing gear for these planes. (Du-Bro 789 Super Strength Landing Gear). But it really isn't plastic. It says "fiberglass reinforced." That could mean a fiberglass core inside the plastic, but at the weight it quotes (4.8 oz) it sounds to me like it's totally fiberglass. It marginally meets what I need on the dimensions, except for width where it mounts to the fuselage..... I would have to split it and separate the halves. And once on the fuselage, I would have to strap the two halves together with a piece of aluminum or something, just like I did with my factory modified gear.

It would weigh a lot too though (4.8 oz/136 grams total) and I would still have to figure out how I would run the electric for the brakes, and how I would mount the brakes to it, or even if I could, which is doubtful without adding even more weight, because I would then have to wrap the Dubros struts to protect the wiring for the brakes.

The Dubro gear IS also even heavier than my modded factory struts that I have.

The total weight of all three factory landing gear, (8.8 oz 250 grams) less the front factory gear 3.52 oz/100g is 5.28 oz/150g for the two main gear and struts with tires and pants and wheels. That's 2.64 oz/75grams for each main as they came in the box with pants and wheels/tires

My mains are each 4.3 oz with the Dubro wheels and brakes, but only 1.95 without the Dubro wheels but still including the brakes, so the Dubro wheels and tires are the bulk of the weight, and literally the only thing making my struts more heavy than the factory ones. Otherwise my factory modded strut including the brakes, wiring, wrap with plastic, hot glue is LESS than the factory struts with pants and wheels/tires. The Dubro tires/wheels are about 2.4 oz each by themselves.

The Dubro fiberglass gear strut is 4.8 oz, meaning 2.4 oz per main.

So my home-built extensions are each a half ounce lighter than the Dubro fiberglass set divided by two. AND part of my weight included the brakes and wiring, so I would have to add THAT to the Dubros set also, plus the brace needed between the two which I also have to have on my existing modded ones. So the Dubro set is probably going to be a full 1 oz heavier on my plane than my existing setup.

The down side is that my set IS heavier than the factory, by 3.3 oz, look wonky going backwards at an angle, will create an uncertain effect on the power and handling, and absolutely won't work if I mount with the rake going forward like the originals, and just generally worry me. I'll keep thinking. The bush gear made from carbon fiber instead of all those aluminum tubes and threaded steel rods and tie rod ends I was messing with, may be the answer, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how anything is going to be lighter than what came with the plane by the time I add those 3" wheels. But I need them for the height and for shock absorption.

One possible answer is to make our own carbon fiber gear, with molds, resin and carbon fiber, but the problem with that is that CF has no flex. I need the shock absorption, so that won't work for me. What made my other gear design problematic was the use of all those threaded rods (steel) and aluminum tie rod ends, and steel hinges. I was over 3 oz without the Dubro tires. I can't see making a set out of the CF tubing, eliminating the threaded rods and aluminum tie rod ends, and still having the hinge mount to the fuselage with some kind of bracket to mount it, plus a shock, plus the brake mounted on the end, and some method of running the wire inside the tubing, and still come up with less than the weight of the gear I have now.

I am looking into alternates to the Dubro. I just ordered these polyurethane sponge wheels to try. I want something that has some give to it, since I have rigid struts. Looking at these, there was no info on how soft or hard they are:

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Airpla...dp/B07PK913KB/

I saw the Dubro ultra lightweight version also

https://www.amazon.com/Du-Bro-300SL-...dp/B0006O8TJ4/

but in the reviews they said there was no give to them at all, they still have those Dubro hubs I don't like too much, and weigh more than the Uxcell version.

If I do that, then the plane is back to factory weight. Except for all the circuit boards, 10 pounds of LEDs, pilot, and epoxy resin I'm adding to it
Last edited by disasterman; Nov 21, 2021 at 03:40 AM.
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Nov 21, 2021, 11:08 AM
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siriusflier's Avatar
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I think your post about pvc pipe based landing gear sounded promising with regards to weight and flexibility.

You could have ordered Dave Brown Lite Flite wheels, they are not very heavy and do absorb some impact. What I am using now on my Valiant with the stiff carbon fiber gear. I think I got mine at Motion RC. Link: https://www.motionrc.com/products/da...nt=19051997126 . 20.9 compared to 16 gram weight of those you ordered, but they do state and are low bounce. Only you are not supposed to leave the Dave Browns setting for long or they will get a flat spot.

I was looking up all my plane weights and could not find a most recent weight for the Grand Cruiser, so I weighed it. 1399 grams without battery.
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Nov 21, 2021, 11:38 AM
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More good information. In running some calculations on another thickness of PVC pipe I had in the garage, (3/16" thick.....1.5" diameter, I determined that even matching the ridiculous length of my existing modified gear, the strut itself will be a lot less in weight if made out of PVC.

If I make it out of the 1/8" that I already experimented on, and match the length it would be .9 oz per strut. Throw on a PU Foam tire like the ones I ordered, and I'm only up to 1.46 oz per wheel. My modified factory strut with brake is 2.05 ounces including the brake, the wrap and glue, and the extended axle wire. The mains as they came in the box with pants, wheels and struts were 2.64 ounces each. Of that, .7 oz was the wheel and pants. That means they were 1.94 ounces with just the strut so my mods increased the weight only .11 ounces per gear. The Dubro tire was most of the added weight. So going back to the PVC. At even the heavier 3/16" PVC in the example below, the weight per gear without the wheel is .9 ounces, throw that .11 ounce back in for the brakes, and I'm at 1.01 ounce or almost an ounce lighter than factory with the PVC. So I was wrong about the PVC being heavy. Quite the contrary. SO taking that as a starting point and now adding in the weight of some ultra lightweight PU Foam tires (Uxcell was the lightest because it doesn't have a rubber shell around the foam) , I'm at 1.57 ounces per gear total including the PVC strut and brake. Or about a half an ounce less than the factory gear.

Next, I was noticing that the flex in the middle takes a LOT of pressure to cause it, but also that the steeper the angle of the strut relative to the plane, the less deflection there is. Two photos below. I attempted to put the same pressure (1 lb.) on the same PVC strut, at the same angle I have on the plane now (about 30 degrees) and at about 45 degrees (steeper). With MORE pressure on the 45 degree test, it had hardly any deflection in the middle, much less than the 30 degree. That translates to a strut length of 7.5 inches versus the 8.5 inch ones I have now. The shorter length means less weight too. With that existing material (the 1/8th inch PVC) the weight of an 8.5 inch piece is .87 ounce versus .77 ounce for the 7.5 inch version. None of those measurements or weights take into account that it won't be 1" in width all the way down to the wheel. It will have a taper to it, down to 3/4 inch width where it turns down for the wheel. Another thing is that even with the shallower angle, ANYthing you add to stiffen it up, even another piece of the same PVC, would immediately kill any deflection. It wouldn't have to be carbon fiber. I just used that as an example. There would be enough give to keep the gear from bending itself under a high vertical speed drop, but probably just sitting there, not so much. The one other thing is that when you put those bends in it for the attachment to the fuselage, and the wheels, those bends move the deflection zone further to the center, and neither bent end is going to have any deflection at all on either side of the bend for at least a couple inches. The shorter the segment, the stiffer it is. It takes a minimum of 155 degrees to deform the PVC, so leaving it in a parked car with the AC off and in the summer sun could cause a sag in the gear. Cars can get as hot as 172 degrees inside when parked out in the sun in the summer. I used to work at a car dealership, and a guy brought his brand new Camaro in for repairs to the interior. He had gone offshore working on an oil rig from June to the end of September, leaving the car out in an asphalt parking lot with the windows rolled up. All the vinyl trim around the pillars and tops of the doors and windows was all sagging down when he came back on shore.

So I ordered the Uxcel wheels. That will probably mean ordering another set of brakes unless I can somehow dig them out of the modified gear. But there's a LOT of hot melt glue holding them in. May not be worth the effort. $29 bucks and I can start clean.

Didn't you order some of those Dubro ultra light wheels? If so, do they have the rubber skin over the foam? I was looking at those Skylite wheels and they do, but unfortunately, they are also heavier than the Uxcell AND the Dubro lightweight versions and more expensive. I'm hoping I didn't order some foam wheels like the ones that originally came with the plane....
Nov 21, 2021, 01:45 PM
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If I remember correctly, I did try some Dubro ultra light wheels, but didn't really like them because the foam of the tire is really stiff. That's why I like the Dave Brown tires, they absorb a lot of bounce and shock.
Latest blog entry: FMS Ranger 1220
Nov 22, 2021, 05:55 AM
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Well that certainly answered my question about the Dubro ultra lights. I was afraid of that. I halfway expect that the Uxcells will be the same, so they may be going back.

Regarding the Dave Brown Lite Flite Wheels, I did look at them at one point but the pictures of them in the packaging looked like open cell EVA foam, very rough stuff, and very squared off between the sidewall and the tread. If they are the open cell EVA foam, it's the same stuff that the cosplay people make masks out of then cover with PVA glue and epoxy to seal the open foam and get a smooth, plastic-like finish. (my trial finishing process now for the EPO foam planes)

I wouldn't want to be flying off of prairie dirt, gravel and rocks on open foam wheels.... one of the concerns about the Uxcells that I just ordered too. What do yours look like? Are they as squishy as the Dubros? They aren't the ones that are sliced like bread are they? I just noticed that Dave Brown's initials are DB, the same as Du-Bro. But I wander.... I do remember the statement about not leaving the plane sitting very long. That won't be an issue with me, because I plan to build a portable roll around cart that loads into my Tahoe, rolls across the ground like a two wheel dolly, then stands up and has some outriggers to make it a stand to park the plane on, which will have two padded belly cutouts and some bungees. At home I plan on hanging them vertically from a wall with bungies, and probably a block of soft foam rubber between them and the wall.

Maybe if these Uxcells don't work out, I'll try the Dave Browns next. They are certainly at an attractive price point, and I've seen good reviews on them, that they hold up for years. I'd rather use the Dubros, but the weight is what's killing me. I'm going to save them since I already added brake rotors to the wheels, which are now permanent, and once I get the plane flying, will put them back on and see how they do. But till I get the bird flying, I need to put it on a diet.

I'm going to hammer out a set of landing gear this week from three different thicknesses of the PVC pipe, and see how they seem to work on the 182. If they seem to do the job, I'll let you know, and if you send me a tracing of the profile of your gear (so I can get the bends right) and the shape (taper) and dimensions, I will build you a set and see if you like them. If you do, and they solve your problem, I have tons of that PVC pipe, and time on my hands. I can build those things all day long. I was going to build something out of the stuff, but got sick and now I don't even remember what I bought it for, LOL.

Have you ever noticed how some of these Chinese names are really pretty bad? LOL. I wonder if any of them check with Americans before naming their companies....
Nov 22, 2021, 10:55 AM
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There are two different Dave Brown Lite Flite wheels, one is squared off and the other is rounded with ribs. I read that someone really liked the squared wheels, but I have the rounded rib type. They are kind of open cell, but I like them because they are not too heavy and help with lowering bounce. I took a photo close up of the DBs I have on my Valiant. First photo is close up of tire, second is DB compression test, and I think the third is a Dubro Super lite.
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Speaking of bad Chinese names, I received and reviewed a Cheerson CX 100 a few years ago.
When this quad was first released the camoflage version had "Stupid" printed on the top of it, now it has been changed to "Smart". You could still see Stupid on top of the camo quad in some of the pictures at Banggood. So the question was: Is it smart or stupid.? So my review folder was titled "Stupid".
Latest blog entry: FMS Ranger 1220
Nov 22, 2021, 04:32 PM
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I was surfing hobby shops last week and came across this alloy spinner with 5 shaft collets ranging in size from 3mm to 5mm for $15.99 from Graves RC. I kinda wanted one to put on the Ranger because I don't really like it's spinner. I also wanted some spare props and they had them. Then I found these long shaft bolt on prop adapters. I got it all today. I like the spinner and will probably use it soon on the Ranger, but may get a different motor for the Ranger first. The props are APC SFs. The prop adapters are 5mm and actually have a 3mm threaded hole at the end, I like that. Both Prop adapters are the same, but one came in a labeled package and has larger bolts, a washer, and a nylock nut. They actually called me the day after I ordered and said one was mislabeled but was the same as the other, and asked me if I wanted both. Then they said one was $5.99 and the other was $7.99. Oh well, I guess I paid $2 more for the washer and nut. Still, I didn't know they came with the threaded end, that will be nice for alloy spinners. I would like to get a couple of more of those spinners.
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Today, I was in Dollartree, stopped at an end counter near the bathroom that I needed to use, some woman went into the bathroom. Then I noticed there were rolls of vinyl wrap on that end counter. I ended up buying two rolls of the vinyl wrap for $1 a roll. It is a little thinner than Oracal or Cricut and does not have as good an adhesive, but I can make it work. I cut a small piece and put it over the dings on a horizontal stab. Photo shows it is a little transparent and didn't stick very well where I wrapped it around the leading edge. Was just thinking yesterday about covering the windscreen on the Ranger with some vinyl, that's why I bought the reflective/silver/holographic vinyl.
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Latest blog entry: FMS Ranger 1220
Nov 22, 2021, 10:33 PM
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Why is it that every plane I buy has problems from the start that I have to fix? With the Valiant it was the tail wheel assembly and the aluminum main landing gear. Designing and attaching my own tail gear seems to have solved that, I have had no problems at all since making that tail gear. The carbon fiber main gear may have completed fixing the landing gear problems, but I only have one flight on it so far. With the Carbon Cub it turned left(still does a bit) and adding more offset to the motor helped that. Also had to tweak the tail gear on the Cub and move the main gear forward to stop nose overs. With the Grand Cruiser I had motor and esc problems.

Now with the Ranger, the nose gear will not retain it's straight position upon landing. After each landing, I have to pick the plane up, turn it over, and manually straighten the nose gear before I can take off again. I have tried gluing the wire spring to the plastic holding parts but it still does it. If it didn't do that I would like the spring loaded nose gear. Today I thought of another reason it might do that. Seems like the last time I had the wing off, there was some play around center on the servo. Should be easy to check, just have to take the wing off again. If that could be the problem, I will have to replace that servo.

Oh well, just venting a bit, but it seems like I spend way too much time correcting manufacturer defects when they could have got it right from the start.
Latest blog entry: FMS Ranger 1220
Nov 23, 2021, 12:21 AM
Registered User
Bahahaha! ("Stupid" printed on box). That's the best one I've heard yet. Usually they have odd names that they apparently think up to describe what they do and how they do it, like "Gofasthappytime"

Regarding: "Why is it that every plane I buy has problems from the start that I have to fix?" I have asked myself the same question, and the answer keeps coming back to what the Chinese are doing. While the country may be Communist, they're also very shrewd, and it's my opinion that they are milking this hobby for everything it's worth. And largely, they have no regulation or competition. The nose gear that comes on the Sky Trainer is notorious for bending or snapping off. The planes are almost all ill-suited for flying off of anything but smooth, hard, clean surfaces or golf course green Zoysia grass that's a quarter inch tall.

They make the planes as cheaply as possible, and for what they spend on them, they should all sell for about $150 to $200, not their typical $300 to $500. They aren't designed to last, they're designed to sell. Guess where they got THAT business model from? The US. So we can't blame them. They are in the business of forcing us into buying more and more models. In most cases now, planes that are brand new are on the market only a year or two before they're discontinued. Shortly after that you can't find parts for them. Your 310 is designed to eat wings and props. The Sky Trainer Cessna is designed to eat props, tails, and nose gear.

99% of my mods are to address things I see that I know won't hold up to what will be my normal flying.
Nov 23, 2021, 12:23 AM
Registered User
Today I came up with another plan, albeit kind of in an accidental manner. I was looking at my newly primed wings, and had just watched a couple videos on YouTube about the Avios Grand Tundra and the thought occurred to me that the way to cuff the leading edge of the 182 has been sitting literally right in front of me all along, almost guarantees success, and costs nothing.

The leading edge on the plane as it sits is somewhat of the typical leading edge that most planes have had over the years, somewhat symetrical when looked at in a cross section. The 182 is missing any kind of wing spar, other than the short plastic tubes (one within the other) used to span the fuselage and connect both wings evenly. Just past the point where it stops in the wing, just outboard of the flap servo, there is a droop in the wings, which with the dihedral, makes it look like a hump in the wing. The servos are located in odd positions at the inboard edges of both the very long flap and very long aileron. I already taped the flap hinges because I flipped them due to the ribs on top being messed up by their factory graphics which are essentially printed on packing tape that has very sticky glue.

So, was trying to figure out how to take the droop out of the wing, and thought again about those thin, flat CF spars I bought for the same kind of reinforcement of the weak wings on the 310. THEN it occurred to me: I can cut a long slit in the top of the wing, about a half inch (10mm) deep, tapering to about 3/8" towards the end, put the wing in a padded jig that forces it into the not drooped position, carefully spread that cut open and gluing one of those strips into the cut, to serve as a full wing spar, and at the same time either turn it flat, or add some balsa shims, which forces the leading edge to rotate downward in front, but leaving about 1/4" uncut, will bend the foam, flatten out the bottom of the airfoil, and increase the AoA of the leading edge and expanding the top survace. Presto, instant wing droop, in the right places, and elimination of the droop and weakness in the wrong place. Once set, I can fill the channel half full with Gorilla glue, which will expand into a hard, lightweight foam, holding everything together. Then with the gap mostly filled, I also would have the shallow trench I need to install those vortex generator strips, and in the exact position they need to be. Two wings, one stone.

So like a dummy, I got my trusty non-stick yellow masking tape to mark the cut line on the wing figured out where I would put it, then took the tape off. And took with it a big fat chunk of wing primer. I wiped down every foam surface with both acetone and 91% Isopropyl alcohol prior to priming, to insure that the mold release was gone so that the all surface primer would stick. It stuck great to the seats that I used for my sample piece. But I've found several pockets already where it is NOT sticking to the EPO foam in places. The football pigskin texture of these planes has everyone looking for ways to smooth them and paint them, and the propensity of the EPO to dent if you just look at it wrong, makes everyone want to protect them somehow. Back to the Chinese. Us doing any of those things is bad for repeat business. So it makes sense that they would make them just the way they are, to quickly become unsightly, and almost impossible for us to coat, paint, or smooth them successfully.
Nov 24, 2021, 12:03 AM
Registered User
Got the Uxcell wheels in today, and they were about what I was worried about. They have very little give to them. They are super smooth though, and look pretty much like the Dubros, but have a slightly larger hub, which is hollow. I'm kind of tossed about whether to keep them or send them back. I love the weight. The Dubro 3 inch are 2.25 oz each, these are .50 oz each. That's a lot of weight difference. for 3 of them it's a difference of a half a pound (7.75 oz) versus 1.5 oz. I think I'm going to keep them and at least try them.

I cut the PVC segments today to bake and flatten, but got ill and didn't get them in the oven. Tomorrow I'm using the oven for thanksgiving cooking, but maybe will get them in if I have time. My friends are like, "What are you doing for Thanksgiving? We're deep frying a turkey!" And I'm like, I'm baking some PVC pipe in the oven . They're like, "What's wrong with you?"

Since I have the deformed 1/8" PVC segments that I made a couple months ago, I'm going to heat gun them, and put the bends in them to match the 182, and see if they will absorb some of the shock, and how much (if any) sag there is just with the weight of the plane on them. I will post the results.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
Nov 24, 2021, 10:58 AM
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I'll bet the PVC pipe will be hard to chew no matter how long your bake it.
I did a turkey once and never will again. Not that baking it was hard, just hate picking all of the meat off the bones. I got a small pre cooked sliced ham. My girls and I like ham better anyway.

Seems like all of the lightest foam wheels are about as hard as a piece of wood. The Dave Brown Lite Flite wheels weigh about 3 times as much as a really light foam wheel. I think my 2.75 inch wheels compare at about 6 grams for the lightest to about 19 grams for a Dave Brown.

I did my Black Friday shopping on Monday and picked up what I bought yesterday. My youngest has Down syndrome and one of her favorite things at home was a race game on the Xbox. Got the Xbox a few years ago, but never liked it and the race game stopped working a few months ago. After spending hours trying to get it to work right, I decided to get her an Nintendo Switch for Christmas. Black Friday sale began Monday at Best Buy and I also got two race games for $30 off. Probably set up the game console soon and save the race games for Christmas.

Too windy to fly, need to do some household chores, and may get to work on some planes later.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Latest blog entry: FMS Ranger 1220
Nov 24, 2021, 10:52 PM
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While I had the wing off to replace the rudder servo, I decided to try some of that reflective vinyl I bought a couple of days ago. The front windscreen is a little rough because of the curves, but hoping it might increase visibility along with the side windows.
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Latest blog entry: FMS Ranger 1220
Nov 25, 2021, 11:16 AM
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Are the windows clear on that plane? If not the holographic film gives the illusion that they are sorta.... Yeah the PVC is tough no matter how long you leave it in the oven! I decided to wait on baking that until after I cooked a pie and a green bean casserole today and heated up some smoked brisket from Rudy's Barbecue (I'm a non-traditionalist). Didn't want any Poly vinyl Chloride flavoring in my food I'm seeing not too many options out there with wheels. If I can get enough spring out of the PVC struts, I'll stick with the ultra light foam wheels. If not, I may have to go back to the Dubros. What brand was it that said not to leave them sitting on the wheels for any length of time? I wanted to look at those again. Seemed like they were soft sponge rubber, with a thin regular rubber coating. Happy Thanksgiving!
Nov 25, 2021, 01:35 PM
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The windows on the Ranger are just black paint over foam. The front one was beat up from nose overs. Those were Dave Brown Lite Flite wheels, I guess they will get a flat spot if you leave them sitting. Not a problem for me, only have them on the Valiant, and none of my planes sit on the wheels.

Right now we are eating smoked ham(that my tennis buddy gave me last night), brocoli, cranberry sauce, and baked potatoes. Will go visit my 97 year old mother in assisted living this afternoon and take her a plate. She is getting frail and confused. Last week she put an aluminum tray in the microwave and caught it on fire, so she doesn't have a microwave now, and no cook stove.
Last edited by siriusflier; Nov 25, 2021 at 08:06 PM.


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