Yes that's a nice surprise to see you on here Gary. I always regretted selling my E3D and Banshee when I went Paramotoring. However I know everyone who's commented on here is probably right the modern stuff is good no denying. But I still like to fly something I've cobbled together from bits of wood. And I personally think the E3D is still for me so even if no one else likes it..even it's designer.. ain't going to stop me building something very similar. Bit of CAD work files off to the laser cutting guys and I'll be back, reunited with my E3D.
So could I pick some brains on here as to the best motor battery setup these days for this plane, 48" wingspan 50 ish ounces weight? I am looking for true vertical/hovering type performance.

I'm thinking Extreme 2814/820 Outrunner, 4s 2350mah - 2700mah, 45A esc, 12x6...maybe?

Can anybody help me out here with how many degrees of right and down thrust I need on an E3D 48"?

2 right, 0 down

That power system sounds good. I'd go with the turbo timber motor, 12X6 and 4S. It will pull a 3 lb plane from hover (only just) on 3S, and is obviously great on the prefered 4s/2200. 3S to 4S without changing anything else nearly doubles the power. Due to the square rule when going up in voltage the current ~should~ go up to 1.77 times the 3S current. Add in the extra voltage and you're at 2.25 times the power. However, the batteries never really maintain the same voltage at higher current so you really end up with near double the power rather than 2.25 time like the math would indicate

Looks like that motor is out of stock right now. https://www.horizonhobby.com/product...EFLM17552.html

Could use the timber X motor (same motor, just different KV) with a 13X4 on 4S or 13X6.5 on 3S. Little lower speed and little higher thrust with this setup (I have hundreds of flights on both so I'm very familiar with them). https://www.horizonhobby.com/product...EFLM17553.html

Originally Posted by GWRIGHT

2 right, 0 down

That power system sounds good. I'd go with the turbo timber motor, 12X6 and 4S. It will pull a 3 lb plane from hover (only just) on 3S, and is obviously great on the prefered 4s/2200. 3S to 4S without changing anything else nearly doubles the power. Due to the square rule when going up in voltage the current ~should~ go up to 1.77 times the 3S current. Add in the extra voltage and you're at 2.25 times the power. However, the batteries never really maintain the same voltage at higher current so you really end up with near double the power rather than 2.25 time like the math would indicate

Gary, I am a long time fan of your flying and models! However I am not sure your maths is right. I believe if you double voltage current will also double based on v=ir. For practical purposes resistance can be assumed constant. If that is the case 3s to 4s raises voltage by 1/3 and current will rise in direct proportion by 1/3. That gives a theoretical power increase of 1.33*1.33 or around 1.77. It remains true that most people underestimate what the effect of changing from 3s to 4s will be if no other factors are changed.

Thank you Gary that's really helpful advise.
It's great that you take the time to respond and help people with your old designs.
Work is progressing slowly CAD work takes ages especially as it's my Son (not an Model plane flyer) who's doing it via zoom with me having to explain what all the model aeroplane parts are etc, so I know each piece almost as well as you by now...
Yes I think I'll try that second motor as it'll swing a nice 13" prop and give plenty of wash over the control surfaces. I'm not after speed it's pulling power I want. I remember my old E3D with the MEC box and huge battery tubes (is Pete still around at MEC) so the new one is going to be quite a bit lighter and should be great in the hover.
I'll post some pics once I get going with it.
Thanks once again. Stay safe...

Originally Posted by juliant

Gary, I am a long time fan of your flying and models! However I am not sure your maths is right. I believe if you double voltage current will also double based on v=ir. For practical purposes resistance can be assumed constant. If that is the case 3s to 4s raises voltage by 1/3 and current will rise in direct proportion by 1/3. That gives a theoretical power increase of 1.33*1.33 or around 1.77. It remains true that most people underestimate what the effect of changing from 3s to 4s will be if no other factors are changed.

The current goes up as the square of the voltage difference, not proportionally, if you don't change kv or prop, hence the 1.33*1.33 current, or 1.77 times current. Say you go from 10 amps on 3s to 17.7 amps on 4S, and the voltage is nominal 3.7/cell (just to make the math easy). 10 amps and 11.1 volts is 111 watts. 17.7 amps and 14.8 volts is 261 watts. In reality, the voltage will be higher than 3.7/cell if the batteries are any good, but with the higher current on 4s the voltage will drop so it won't be the "over double" but in my experience it's nearly double the wattage. I've confirmed these numbers with a power supply a few times in the past (so i can maintain a consistent "voltage per cell" for comparison). I do a LOT of power system testing these days for products we develop and collect WAY TO MANY numbers . KV changes are a cubed difference rather than squared so I'm always asked "why did you only want to go up such a small amount on kv with the motor factory when we need to get the current up/down 10%,20%,..etc.? It's the cubed relationship at play. I really wish it was all proportional rather than squared/cubed. Getting a power system optimized for a particular model would be a heck of a lot easier/quicker. When asking a factory for motors in KV's of x,y,and z They can never hit them exactly. one turn more or less is usually a bigger difference than I want. yes we can change the guage wire and if it's a single,double,triple wind, etc, but that also changes the fill percentage so copper losses can go up which is another variable.

I've been asked why we can't get an ultra micro to work well on 1S and 2S,.. after all it's just a single cell difference, like the things we make work on 3S and 4S. Think about the squared relationship

I remember working with an ultra micro a couple years ago and almost pulling my hair out trying to get 2S and 3S working without a prop change (i couldn't even after testing a bunch of motor kv's and sizes, and many different props (still amazed we can 3D print props to try in strange sizes and they stay together, but they do ). the difference in voltage is so large you just can't get it to work. either it's overloaded on 3S or underpowered on 2S.

Pete is not in business anymore (MEC). gone for years.
Yes, the 900kv motor with 13X4 is great on a 3lb model and actually very good up to 4lb or so, but I don't like the more than 3 to 1 PD ratio. The prop is only working well in hover and become inefficient at higher speeds. Yes it works and does so very well but it's not terribly efficient. I really prefer to keep props in the 1.5 to 2 range for PD ratio. The 3 to 1 of the above example works and is great for that type model but it's like you're driving something in 1st gear all the time. It'll be guzzling gas at 70 on the highway . Likewise, things like "square props" (and over square) , 8X8, 8X10, 10X10 with a PD ratio at or below 1 aren't terribly efficient either, unless you always want to go fast, (or cruise at reduced throttle). You're in 5th gear, or overdrive. Great for the highway, not good for backroads going up and down hills. 1.5 to 2 ratios on the props generally give you something in 2nd/3rd gear, so they're all-around acceptable. If I were in you're shoes, knowing the model and flying style you're after, the 13X4 and 900kv motor would be the choice. I also know from the abuse testing I did before that model was released that the setup will last . The goal was 150 flights with that model, full throttle till lvc, as close to back to back as possible so nothing had a chance to cool. Check temps, change packs, and up again. As it turns out I could only get about 75 in a day. (have to take breaks here and there, get lunch, etc. Middle summer also, so ambient was in the 90's. did multiple days like that. i've since changed the criteria and lowered the flight counts as i've found with many other power systems, the temps generally stabilize after a few flights so even a dozen is really overkill. If temps are still changing at that point (increasing), gotta do something , either prop change or kv change since it's not going to last. when things "pop" doing this, it's always on or before the 2nd or 3rd flight

QUOTE=Heli Baby;46359701]Thank you Gary that's really helpful advise.
It's great that you take the time to respond and help people with your old designs.
Work is progressing slowly CAD work takes ages especially as it's my Son (not an Model plane flyer) who's doing it via zoom with me having to explain what all the model aeroplane parts are etc, so I know each piece almost as well as you by now...
Yes I think I'll try that second motor as it'll swing a nice 13" prop and give plenty of wash over the control surfaces. I'm not after speed it's pulling power I want. I remember my old E3D with the MEC box and huge battery tubes (is Pete still around at MEC) so the new one is going to be quite a bit lighter and should be great in the hover.
I'll post some pics once I get going with it.
Thanks once again. Stay safe...[/QUOTE]

13x4 900KV Timber X motor 17553 on 4S it is then. How long a flight time would you expect from that with a couple of hovering sessions and general flying around? Am I right in thinking that a good/well matched setup shouldn't get too hot? in which case I wouldn't need the hole in top of fuse like I had on my original (my avatar), it was also open underneath. I've still got half a roll of that transparent purple covering so no prizes for guessing what it'll look like.
Thanks for all the advise it's going to save me ages with all the motor battery prop setups.

On a 4s/2200 I see 4 minutes wide open till LVC and 5 to 6 normally (aggressive 3D style, not putting around) You could use larger batteries but keep in mind the extra weight requires more power so you don't get a proportional increase in flight time. 4s/3200's will probably only increase a minute and a half or so and the plane will fly heavier. If it flies as you'd like with the larger battery then that's fine, just something to keep in mind.

Yes laws of physics just don't change....

I was gifted an E3D and I have everything ready for the maiden except for the balance point. I can’t find a manual online, can someone help me out with a good starting point?

Why the main spar of course, where else?
Happy flights