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Dec 21, 2020, 08:39 AM
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whacker's Avatar

hager posted


You do not need a big starter motor to have high-start type launches for sport flying.


I agree

Until the guy next to you has something that gives him an extra 50 ft of height on Launch, and he thermals out every time.

Complex winches require complex solutions, more components and offer more points of failure.

Let alone these will fail sitting in the basement for months at a time,

If we could only define 10 more spots all measuring 800 ft x 800 ft where one could keep the prop in the nose types away, we could see a resurgence of winches
Until then, well DaY Dreams

Merry Christmas

whacker
in the rainy Waughs River Valley
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Dec 21, 2020, 09:19 AM
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John O'Sullivan's Avatar
"Simplexity" is the answer.
Take the motor and ESC and put in the nose of the model, stick a propeller on it and away you go.
No tangles, no line chasing or fiddling with the winch or lugging the winch around, and all you need is a flying area of 200 ft x 200ft.
Been there and done that and my 80 year old legs tell me not to sneer at "ugly spinning things on the nose."
Dec 21, 2020, 04:56 PM
Quad Erat Demonstrandum
scousethief's Avatar
Would have thought the 3D printing world would have cobbled something nice and easy together by now .............
Dec 21, 2020, 11:35 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scousethief
Would have thought the 3D printing world would have cobbled something nice and easy together by now .............
Not as easy as it might seem at first glance. I've read quite a few reports over the years where the compression load on the drums from all the strongly tensioned wraps of line caused some seriously stout aluminium drums to collapse or to pop off a side plate from the pressure.
Dec 22, 2020, 10:28 PM
Registered User
You don't need 800 feet for a winch unless you need very high launches. We have a field that long but we probably use 500 feet for the winch. A winch of reasonable power can reach the same height in less distance than a hi start. We often launch downwind. If there's enough room, and no tailwind, a weak winch is fine for fun flying.

I look forward to using lighter batteries for winches in the future. Lighter motors would be nice. Many existing winch frames are overshoot and much heavier than necessary.

Any remotely controlled winch had better have sufficient safeguards to prevent it ever turning on by accident.
Dec 27, 2020, 02:02 AM
Quad Erat Demonstrandum
scousethief's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMatthews
Not as easy as it might seem at first glance. I've read quite a few reports over the years where the compression load on the drums from all the strongly tensioned wraps of line caused some seriously stout aluminium drums to collapse or to pop off a side plate from the pressure.
Nothing ever is lol. But in the case of these 100+/- gram mini gliders I would have thought it would be (relatively compared to say a 2m glider) somewhat 'easier'..
I am, of course, new to gliders, well, new to the idea of a winch or bungee launched plane. I have always hand launched my planes ( everything from an RCLander F16 to a mini swift II) but age and health has directed me towards smaller planes and an alternative to throwing bits foam/balsa as fast as possible to avoid the ever waiting stall/lawn dart .

The drill idea was interesting not only because I have just but the PUG Dlg (which is very nicely laser cut) but for the above reasons.
Maybe something rubber would do the job equally as well, some silicone tuning or some looped together heavy duty rubber bands. The PUG is very light and shouldn't take 'much' to get it up higher than my knackered shoulder could throw.
Dec 27, 2020, 07:26 AM
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gliderguide's Avatar
I ran some old HK red rubber on DLGís for ages. About 10m and 15m line. Hook well forward of CG. The idea was almost a horizontal launch for decent air speed then pull up to simulate dlg throw. Worked plenty good. The new hk rubber is different though so Iíd look at some theraband blue tube.
Dec 27, 2020, 05:33 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scousethief
....The drill idea was interesting not only because I have just but the PUG Dlg (which is very nicely laser cut) but for the above reasons.
Maybe something rubber would do the job equally as well, some silicone tuning or some looped together heavy duty rubber bands. The PUG is very light and shouldn't take 'much' to get it up higher than my knackered shoulder could throw.
The Pug is listed at 85 to 95 gms ready to fly. Assuming even the 95 to 100 gm "higher end" (which is still admirably light for this size model) you could easily launch it with a micro hi start. Buy a 1/4lb box of 3/16 rubber and make up a loop that is about 15 ft long. Put a 3/4" heavy section O ring on each end as a strain and abrasion avoider. On one end use a long'ish screwdriver or a long landscape spike as the anchor. Attach a couple of yards of colorful survey tape to it so you can find it later... don't ask... On the other end use about 100 ft of 10lb test monofilament or some very light gauge Spectra or similar fishing line. You want skinny so it has lower line drag. Use about a foot of the same survey tape about a foot from the end. And finally use a fishing line swivel at the very end as your two ring.

When you stretch it out by around 25 paces you'll be holding the model against the hellacious tension that feels like a thousand butterfly sneezes worth of force. But when you push the model out for the launch the darn thing will zip up the line like a shot. And if there's a whiff of a breeze it'll likely lift all the rubber off the ground and you'll have to dive slightly and snap back which will "ping" the model off with enough speed to zoom back up about 10 or 15 more feet.

For something to wind it up that can be easily made you could make something pretty easily. The winding goes faster when it's a bigger diameter. I'd suggest go around to the dollar store and buy two shallow round baking trays. The "personal pizza" size. Or maybe a two pack of round metal pie baking plates. glue the two together and cover over the seam so the line doesn't disappear down the joint. Add a swiveling center handle and one out near the inner rim as a winding handle. Or make something of a similar 8 to 10" diameter with rims. Wind the line on first with the rubber on the outside so the line doesn't pressure into the rubber. And don't wind it with any stretch to it. Not slack and sloppy but no tension.

The whole thing will be around a lb. And it doesn't take more than a few seconds to set up. If someone steals it or their dog chews it while you're flying and not watching it's not the end of the world. And it's a lot lighter and more compact than even a light weight low power winch can possibly be. And all in all I'd venture that it would be a launch companion very much in keeping with gliders like the PUG or even up to 1.5m size.

My own micro start made as above was able to send up a 9oz Tercel javelin style hand launch like it had a rocket tied to it. And as mentioned if there was a 3 to 4 mph breeze it would lift all the rubber off the ground and hold it with a slight stretch.
Dec 27, 2020, 06:03 PM
Registered User
gliderguide's Avatar
Agree on the micro bungee set up. Donít like the spike though. Iíve always used something that engages the ground a little more positively. A flying screwdriver isnít a nice inbound.
Cheap dog spike. Even has a rough swivel built in
Dec 28, 2020, 06:11 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
If it were anything but the weak free flight rubber I'd totally agree. I use the same corkscrew for my other hi start which uses 5/16 tubing for the rubber portion.

And I do use a long bladed driver and I set it in at quite an angle. The line tension is so low that that if it's not set into dry sand it's never been an issue.

And we ARE talking about something like maybe 8 to 10 oz of pull here. On my first trial with mine I had serious doubts about it working at all. I was literally holding the model lightly pinched between thumb and forefinger and thinking "failure". This coming from someone that has flown free flight A-1 gliders that pulled harder on the towline than this micro start.

So I let it go at a shallow angle thinking it would maybe get up to 20 feet and fly off the line. Well.... it took off like a shot and the line was actually WHISTLING ! ! ! Second flight was pushed away at more like a 60 to 70į angle and it still took off with the line whistling most of the way up.
Dec 30, 2020, 10:13 PM
Gots me a good used Hobie Hawk
Steve Corbin's Avatar
Howzabout using a motor to turn the crank of a deep sea fishing reel?
Dec 30, 2020, 10:54 PM
Registered User
gliderguide's Avatar
The gearing on a reel is backwards for what we need. Did some thinking. Normally one revolution of the handle translates to 5 or so turns of the spool. There are attractive aspects such as the drag function (tension relief) and anti reverse (switch off for running out line) and the way the line is laid nicely on the spool. An alvey or snapper winch spool may be interesting as they are direct drive so a cog n belt system would work to get the drive ratio correct.
https://www.googleadservices.com/pag...BAgCECY&adurl=

They are robust and spares available. The spools come in different diameters and line capacity. Not needing a turn around means youíd only need 150/200m which fits easily.
Jan 01, 2021, 09:28 PM
Gots me a good used Hobie Hawk
Steve Corbin's Avatar
I was playing with a fishing rod and reel today. I think that the cordless drill might have the gearing and the torque required to turn the shaft of the reel at the right speed to launch a little floater type glider.

Too darn cold out to do any experiments today, but I think I'll be looking into this idea some more.

If it isn't fast enough the output of the reel could be used to drive another reel, that should be quick enough for slow gliders.

A guy could stand way upwind of launch and tow a glider up, when released the parachute would pull the line back to launch for the next guy. Maybe make the 'chute steerable.
Jan 01, 2021, 11:36 PM
Registered User
gliderguide's Avatar
Possible Steve.
Keep the process going. I had considered an electric motor/ lipo combo from bits I had. The drill will gear down then the reel gear up. Drill has a clutch and so does the reel so should be reasonable as a torque limiter maybe? Reduce wing failure...
Jan 02, 2021, 02:29 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
The reel setup would have to have virtually no resistance for a reasonable size chute to draw the line off the spool. I think you'll find that's a dead end unless the chute is so big that it causes excess drag even when pulled tight for the launch and limits the height you can reach as a result.

The good news though is that over the years seeing a number of winches and high starts is that even a modest little flag combined with the drag of the line itself has enough resistance to falling that the line lays down neatly in even the slightest of breezes.


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