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Oct 14, 2020, 07:34 AM
I'm not as bad as they say.
Thread OP
Idea

F5-res/f5j-res/f5-ales


I'd like to propose a set of rules for an airplane class that could be flown in multiple kinds of events.
Background:
Many of us here in Florida have F3RES models and we enjoy competing with them. The low cost of the models and the even playing field makes for fun competition. We also have F3K models and F5J models, so do not think I am trying to suppress any of the other models classes. However many of our local modelers will never fly F3K or F5J, but will gladly fly the less expensive models.
Also many of us don't like the hi-start/bungee method that goes with the F3RES contest rules, even though we are ok with the F3RES model construction rules and the scoring of the event. We would like to fly this same event electric, or given the option fly the same model in an F5J format or in an ALES format. This is not intended to be a replacement for F5J, nor a replacement for ALES. Just an electric option F3RES for local contests. To be able to do this we need to agree on what airplanes we are flying. Thus..

The proposal.
I propose that we standardize on the model rules for this class as follows:
1) Models shall be built according to the F3RES construction rules (primarily of wood, limited composites, 3 channel Rudder Elevator and Spoiler, etc) with the exception that electric power is the primary launch method.
2) Some modest minimum wing loading (maybe the same as F5K?)
3) some kind of approved altitude or time limiting throttle device. (e.g. Altis/CAM etc).

This allows for local contests to fly F3RES using electric (using a fixed altitude cutoff, with reflights during the 9 minute window), or fly the same model in an ALES format (simultaneous launch) , or fly the same model in an F5J format (height penalty scoring) depending on the feelings of the local pilots. Further if the local pilots want the bungee launched F3RES models included then they could fly in some of the events when ballasted up to the minimum wing loading of the class (this is one of the reasons for having a wing loading rule in the first place).

Our local club (Orlando Buzzards) is entertaining the idea of a contest using this model description sometime next spring.
Does anyone who is already flying one of these models using electric have a suggestion about a reasonable wing loading ?

--mickey
Latest blog entry: AIrcraft I've built.
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Oct 14, 2020, 07:55 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
I think this is a great idea but I think you should also find a way within the rules to include Radians.

Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons
Oct 14, 2020, 08:10 AM
I'm not as bad as they say.
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwoebke
I think this is a great idea but I think you should also find a way within the rules to include Radians.

Ryan
Agreed. Perhaps a list of approved RTF airplanes that are similar enough in performance.
Latest blog entry: AIrcraft I've built.
Oct 14, 2020, 08:17 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Or you could just allow uncovered/sheeted foam 2 meter RES models. That would allow the radian and any clones that could come out. The naked foam by its nature kind of has built in inefficiencies that make it a good flyer but not something that would start an arms race


Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons
Oct 14, 2020, 10:04 AM
ƃuıʇɐǝʞ ʇʇoɔs
vulturetec's Avatar
The ideas I've heard have been fairly simple: start with the basic F3RES rules, and replace the hi-start with a 100m altitude-limited electric launch.

Alternatively use F5J type scoring based on 100m.

I lean toward the altitude-limited launch as that means anyone flying electric F3RES can jump right into the mixed-launch or ALES contests without changing any hardware. There's also the possibility that getting to the F5J readout may be more difficult, depending on the airframe and installation.

If you include Radians (or "Radian-like" gliders) then forget the comparison to F3RES. Just call it a 2M ALES (or 2M F5J) contest that bans composite construction (except for what is exempted in the F3RES rules, I guess). Nothing wrong with that, but that's all it would really be.
Oct 14, 2020, 10:19 AM
NorCal Electric Soaring (NES)
SoaringDude's Avatar
Hey Mickey, interesting idea. I wanted to let you know that any club that wants to host an F5J USA Tour event can easily add one or more classes for F3RES or woody/foamy/RES planes and still be a valid Tour event. We have a tutorial for how to do that using Gliderscore here: How to add classes for woodies & other basic planes

One reason for doing an F5J USA Tour event is that you may attract some out-of-towners to your event.

My .02.

Chris
www.f5j-usa.com
Oct 14, 2020, 10:24 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulturetec
If you include Radians (or "Radian-like" gliders) then forget the comparison to F3RES. Just call it a 2M ALES (or 2M F5J) contest that bans composite construction (except for what is exempted in the F3RES rules, I guess). Nothing wrong with that, but that's all it would really be.
Why do you think that including Radians wouldn't make it still F5RES? My observation of F3RES is it is a place to celebrate inexpensive 2 meter RES flying from high starts and also serve as an entry level event that is a staring point for folks that might eventually move into more advanced competition classes. It celebrates woody building, which is great. F5RES could be the same kind of thing. But what better way to make it an entry level event than also allow the most entry level suggested model in the past few years, the Radian? Anybody that has flown a F3RES model and a Radian know that although they are in the same envelope of performance the modern F3RES models are of course better than the Radian.


Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons
Oct 14, 2020, 10:28 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulturetec
There's also the possibility that getting to the F5J readout may be more difficult, depending on the airframe and installation.
My experience is that with a F3RES type plane getting the F5J readout is actually the easiest. Since you are already poking some wires into the bottom of the wing for the servo connection you can insert the F5J device into that hole and then let it sit display facing out on the bottom side of the wing (for my Allegro I have it sit under the spoiler). Then you can just turn the plane upside down after the flight and read the F5J device.

Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons
Oct 14, 2020, 11:28 AM
Tom Boyd
tflyerofRC's Avatar
A lot of us here at SARCF built electric versions earlier this year in anticipation of perhaps having an event like this. It could start out simply as a fun event (maybe not FSS). For me, either ALES or F5J format would be fine. Key is to keep it simple and to have fun.
Oct 14, 2020, 11:52 AM
In F3J size does matter!
roydor's Avatar
We’ve set our sights locally on an electric 2M RES class based on the 2M RES models now gaining popularity in Europe (and the US I’ve heard).
Built up models, mostly balsa, light motor systems, probably height limited to about 100/150 meters.
We still haven’t worked out all the details but it should be a cheap and fun entry level class where a pilot with big bucks can’t purchase performance. Also the rules will be simple (launch, fly, land)
Hopefully we will have a couple local events to test out the concept next year.
Oct 14, 2020, 12:15 PM
I'm not as bad as they say.
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by roydor
We’ve set our sights locally on an electric 2M RES class based on the 2M RES models now gaining popularity in Europe (and the US I’ve heard).
Built up models, mostly balsa, light motor systems, probably height limited to about 100/150 meters.
We still haven’t worked out all the details but it should be a cheap and fun entry level class where a pilot with big bucks can’t purchase performance. Also the rules will be simple (launch, fly, land)
Hopefully we will have a couple local events to test out the concept next year.
I'm just asking that we agree on a set of model specifications, so that we we can do these events locally or perhaps regionally without people having models built to different rules. As to what the actual contest you fly that would be up to the CD / contest organizer.
But the idea is that if you have something like an Altis in one of these models you could fly any one of a number of events with the same model (ALES, F3RES, or F5J style) depending on what the locals want to do.
The F3RES rules are already 2M RES. (for which there are a bunch of kits available)
Latest blog entry: AIrcraft I've built.
Oct 14, 2020, 12:37 PM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
I'm just suggesting if your goal is to be low cost and entry level, which keeps being brought up, I think it makes a lot of sense to find a way to include Radians. I think it would be super simple to say model specifications are for any electric model that meets the F3RES construction requirements or any 2 meter RES model made of predominately pure foam.

Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons
Oct 14, 2020, 02:23 PM
Registered User
It would be good to modify ALES apply a launch height penalty like F5j. Then the CD does not worry about launch height. One can choose to launch at a height cut off or use a away to record the motor shut of height. Over shoot will not be worried, that way the motor cut of by height as ALES does now will not have an advantage. It would make ALES not as much of a landing contest and scoring would be done as in F5J. I know it will not happen but it would make sense.

Art
Oct 14, 2020, 02:42 PM
I'm not as bad as they say.
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwoebke
I'm just suggesting if your goal is to be low cost and entry level, which keeps being brought up, I think it makes a lot of sense to find a way to include Radians. I think it would be super simple to say model specifications are for any electric model that meets the F3RES construction requirements or any 2 meter RES model made of predominately pure foam.

Ryan
And for the second time I agree with you. But I still think this needs to be an (often revised) list of acceptable models so it doesn't get out of hand.
The list so far:
1) Radian (2m)
Latest blog entry: AIrcraft I've built.
Oct 14, 2020, 03:17 PM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnowell129
But I still think this needs to be an (often revised) list of acceptable models so it doesn't get out of hand.
The list so far:
1) Radian (2m)
If it is a list then you need a board or whatever to manage that list. I think it would be fine to change the line from the rules:

The model shall be fabricated primarily from wood.

To be:

The model shall be fabricated primarily from wood or foam the isn't sheeted or veneered with any material other than paint .

In reality, it is probably just going to be the 2 meter Radian. But this would allow any other Radian clones in the future to also be included.


Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons


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