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Jul 10, 2020, 07:48 PM
Registered User
Captain Dunsel's Avatar
Guys, I'm not in favor of restrictions! I'm saying I can see how non-RC folks can justify them in THEIR minds.

We know more about what models can do than the average DHS guy knows. In THEIR minds, our models could carry nerve gas, anthrax spores, etc., which are more effective than a few ounces of explosive.

What I fear is that someone will use a drone to deliver a chemical, biological, or explosive payload. Given the current, explosive political fervor in the US, I don't know if it would be an attack from the left or from the right, but either way, it would give justification for an immediate and total shutdown of all R/C model activity in the US.


CD
Last edited by Captain Dunsel; Jul 10, 2020 at 07:54 PM.
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Jul 10, 2020, 08:08 PM
flyin' fool
goldguy's Avatar
Aerobatics/3D/Sport/Wheels/Floats under 8.8 .............................. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...hlight=trottel
Jul 10, 2020, 08:19 PM
flyin' fool
goldguy's Avatar
Get a clown to run the show and you end up with a circus, and a big top full of elephants that will do and say anything to keep getting fed.

We're not too much different here when it comes right down to it, as are other countries as well.
Jul 10, 2020, 08:47 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by flieslikeabeagle
We should get together, we can be the blind leading the blind!

My wife found the original photo that she then Photoshopped slightly to make it into my RCG avatar. That little photo of the flying beagle has attracted far more attention and caused far more smiles here than anything I could ever do myself.


-Gnobuddy
.

I almost finished designing a p51 and was hoping to build wings + some of the fuse from pink/yellow or eps foam and 3d print the rest.

I always built light models but 250grams is too restrictive, my models usually come close to 500grams. Given the weight of the servos, battery , motor etc. it is unlikely that I can build something that I like to fly at that weight.
Jul 10, 2020, 09:34 PM
Retired CAD guy
birdofplay's Avatar
Ca mon !!! we know who would be doing "IT"
Lets look at the history of anarchy in the USA


OK lets ignore the facts and make sure they are erased.


Apologies for the assumption of legitimate debate discussion and dialog.
Last edited by birdofplay; Jul 11, 2020 at 02:24 PM.
Jul 10, 2020, 11:51 PM
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flieslikeabeagle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Dunsel
Guys, I'm not in favor of restrictions!
To be clear: I never thought you were. It's all good!

You are not the first person from whom I've heard similar comments. But people badly overestimate the capability of little model aircraft and drones. They are very slow, they can only fly for a very short time - at best, a few tens of minutes - before running out of juice, and they can't carry enough weight to be dangerous. RC planes are nothing like the "smart bombs" we saw flying down ventilator shafts and blowing up buildings during the Gulf War in 1991.

As we saw to our horror in the 2017 Las Vegas Strip shooting massacre, a handful of high-powered guns can do far, far, far more damage than any RC aeroplane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Dunsel
In THEIR minds, our models could carry nerve gas, anthrax spores, etc., which are more effective than a few ounces of explosive.
Those bio-weapons are not easy to obtain. If a terrorist group had sufficient money and power to get hold of deadly biological agents, why would they waste their time and energy to puff a few teaspoonfuls of the stuff out in the air (where most of it will drift away harmlessly) from a slow, clumsy, inaccurate, range-limited, RC plane or drone? Why not fill a van with hundreds of pounds of the poison, add some explosive, park it in a crowded location, and blow it up? Or rent a (full-size) helicopter, fly over a stadium full of sports fans, and drop the stuff there?

It just doesn't make sense to me. I think a terrorist would have to be an ineffective moron to try to do his/her deadly work with an RC model. It's a bit like trying to commit terrorism with a catapult and a pailful of stones. Yes, you can do a tiny little bit of damage at short range, but that's all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Dunsel
...an attack from the left or from the right...would give justification for an immediate and total shutdown of all R/C model activity in the US.
I agree, I can easily see that happening - because RC pilots are a tiny group of people who have no strong and rich lobby, and politicians like to swat small flies who don't fight back. It would be easy for politicians to use TV and Web media to portray people who like to fly model aeroplanes as crackpots on the fringes of society, and it is easy to drum up public suspicion of crackpots. The general public would not shed any tears if the Fed banned all RC flying devices.

But, as we've all seen many times, assault rifles really are deadly threats (unlike RC planes), and still, there is no Federal Assault Weapons ban in the USA. In what crazy world does it make sense to ban RC planes because they are dangerous, but not ban assault rifles, which were invented to be deadly?

You may be right, and the bans you fear may arrive one day. But, IMO, that won't make those laws any less stupid.

All this reminds me of the 1980's Kevin Bacon film "Footloose", and the town where dancing is illegal, because it's so dangerous!


-Flieslikeabeagle
Last edited by flieslikeabeagle; Sep 29, 2020 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Typo
Jul 11, 2020, 12:10 AM
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flieslikeabeagle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLabel
I always built light models but 250grams is too restrictive, my models usually come close to 500grams. Given the weight of the servos, battery , motor etc. it is unlikely that I can build something that I like to fly at that weight.
This is exactly my challenge as well. A few weeks ago I found a great deal on a 48 gram brushless motor, and another on a pair of 3S, 1600 mAh lipo packs that weight 140 grams each. I bought these before I found out about the current insane 250 gram limit on RC plane weight.

Obviously, that motor and battery (188 grams together) are never going to cut it for a model that has to weigh 250 grams ready to fly. Even my SkyFly receiver weighs 15 grams, not to mention 20 grams for four servos, 15 grams for an ESC, and so on. I think my electronics alone adds up to over 250 grams. So I either need a negative-weight airframe, or I have to go shopping for even smaller and lighter RC equipment.

Maybe I should just get a couple of corks, four feathers, a few rubber-bands, and make one of those counter-rotating rubber-band-powered flying helicopter toys I used to make as a kid!

-Flieslikeabeagle
Jul 11, 2020, 04:51 AM
gpw
gpw
“There’s no place like Foam”
gpw's Avatar
Thread OP
Beagle … EXACTLY !!!
and with no “Lobby “ ( Where’s the AMA ??? ) we can expect no relief but to change the leadership who came up with these Fatuous weight rules …

For now , wind that rubber band , and don’t forget to light the DT fuse …
Latest blog entry: Lost plans
Jul 11, 2020, 05:01 AM
Registered User
Do you guys think that this lower limit will be enforced strictly. It is such a wide margin 0.55lbs to 55lbs, seriously how can you put a 1lbs model with a freaking 55lbs one ?
Jul 11, 2020, 08:51 AM
treefinder
springer's Avatar
Been reading this thread with interest , and gotta say that BoP's suggestion of a cell phone app is a very reasonable one (assuming some tracking is really valuable, not just supporting more beaurocratic insanity). It would be a minimally intrusive way to do it. On the other hand, imho, the whole exercise by FAA is beaurocatic insanity, assumes that law abiding folk will comply, and will be absolutely ineffective in its stated goals. My opinion is that the potential for actual enforcement across the whole US will be nil. There may be some merit and success in concentrated venues like metropolitan areas, airports, federal and military sites, and some practical (?) Potential to actually enforce the rule. Considering the areas we foamie flyers actually fly, though, I don't see how the government will be able to keep track. If our 16 oz, radar invisible, slow flying objects have no broadcasting device, how will they detect them unless they are also line of sight? Where I mostly fly, on 2 flat, mowed acres behind my house, nobody ever bothers me for any reason, because no one knows I'm there!

On the other hand, while I, like most of the posters on this thread started flying with simple, light foamies (often designed by gpw, by the way), as I have "matured" in the hobby, the builds have increased in size, weight and expense. I enjoyed the challenge of making the planes more realistic and liked the speed and maneuverability of the larger airframes. Looking forward, though, the challenge of making larger planes much lighter is another interesting challenge, regardless of the FAA machinations.

Beagle, i also use FlySky protocol (tgy9xrPro and FS-i6) and there are many very light RXs available for those radios on banggood and hobby king. They make a 3 ch, originally for ground use, so not full long range for $6 or so; great for park flyers. Just removing the plastic case reduces weight a lot. They also sell micro RX the size of a thumbnail, so some good candidates for a sub 8 oz build. So I don't think we will run out of planes to design, build and fly even if the FAA succeeds in their quest to control us!

Just an addendum, I think the folk who will really be hit by this will be the loyal AMA members, flying big gassers and jets at their club fields. They are telling the FAA where they will likely be and if any wide spread enforcement occurs, it will be there.
Jul 11, 2020, 02:27 PM
Retired CAD guy
birdofplay's Avatar
Thanx Mike.

Ditto on other remarks and a resounding Here here !
Jul 11, 2020, 03:37 PM
Got shenpa?
flieslikeabeagle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLabel
Do you guys think that this lower limit will be enforced strictly.
The murderous monster Joseph Stalin once said something along the lines of "An innocent man is dangerous, because he has no fear." Stalin's fix for this "problem" was very simple - just make sure that everybody is guilty, by making so many complex and stupid and impossible laws that everybody becomes a lawbreaker. After that they are no longer innocent but guilty, so they will live in fear, and be easy to control.

So the answer to your question, IMO, is "Not at all!" It won't be practical for law enforcement to make sure nobody flies anything weighing more than 250 grams. But the stupid fear-mongering law will have the desired effect all the same: fly something weighing 251 grams, and you are now a law-breaker, a criminal, a guilty person, and therefore, fearful and subservient to your ruler. This atmosphere of fear and guilt will be reinforced because members of the general public will start to see all RC pilots as terrorists, so when you go out to fly your 251-gram instrument of terror , people who see you will stare at you in fear, and pull their children behind them to keep them safely away from scary you, and call 911 to report the dangerous terrorist...

So the law doesn't need to be enforced routinely. The atmosphere of fear and suspicion, and the threat of huge fines and criminal charges, will still hang over your head, and keep people from flying, or even thinking about entering the hobby. Nobody wants to become the target of fear and hostility and suspicion from everyone around them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLabel
It is such a wide margin 0.55lbs to 55lbs, seriously how can you put a 1lbs model with a freaking 55lbs one ?
I know, right? It makes no sense at all. Neither does injecting yourself with disinfectant, but that idea was touted as well...

For reference, a basketball weighs 624 grams, which is 22 oz, or 1 3/8 lbs. More than double that terrifying 250-gram "drone" weight limit. And a basketball often moves faster than a small parkflyer, too. Clearly, basketballs are deadly threats, people who play basketball are flaky lunatic terrorists, and we need laws to protect innocent civilians from deadly basketballs.

-Flieslikeabeagle
Last edited by flieslikeabeagle; Sep 29, 2020 at 05:57 PM. Reason: To fix a typo
Jul 11, 2020, 04:02 PM
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flieslikeabeagle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer
Where I mostly fly, on 2 flat, mowed acres behind my house, nobody ever bothers me for any reason, because no one knows I'm there!
Lucky you! And that is what we may soon see - more RC pilots flying secretly, hiding their now-shameful hobby from the public gaze, hoping nobody makes that phone call that brings out the police and lands them with criminal charges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer
I enjoyed the challenge of making the planes more realistic and liked the speed and maneuverability of the larger airframes.
Same here. For me, though, I think the sweet spot was somewhere around 4 lbs and no more than 65 inches wingspan. Big enough to fly very well, small enough to stick a few of them in the back of your car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer
Looking forward, though, the challenge of making larger planes much lighter is another interesting challenge, regardless of the FAA machinations.
I have been thinking something similar. But very large, very light planes fly very slowly, are inevitably fragile, and are helpless in all but perfectly calm conditions. Remember those incredible 1980s human-powered aircraft, like the MIT Daedalus? Incredibly huge, incredibly light, incredibly fragile; they could only fly immediately after dawn, in the stillest of still air.

Closer to the RC world, there are amazing achievements like Alan Cocconi's 48-hour solar-powered flight with an RC model back in 2005 ( https://www.machinedesign.com/news/a...-days-straight ). Sunlight is a weak energy source, and this amazing RC plane had to be able to fly using very, very little power. That meant large size, very light weight, very good aerodynamics, and a very efficient motor and propeller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer
...I also use FlySky protocol (tgy9xrPro and FS-i6) and there are many very light RXs available for those radios on banggood and hobby king...
Thanks for the tips! Canada has one-tenth the population of the USA, and our dollar is weaker, so far fewer people fly RC here, and RC resources here are correspondingly more limited. I haven't been able to locate those little receivers within the country, so I guess I will have to go to Banggood and similar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer
They also sell micro RX the size of a thumbnail
Will that drive servos directly, or does it use one of those one-wire serial communications protocols (iBus, sBus, etc) that only work with a drone controller board?
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer
So I don't think we will run out of planes to design, build and fly even if the FAA succeeds in their quest to control us!
You've already contributed so many wonderful designs and construction tips to the hobby! I look forward to seeing whatever you might come up with next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer
I think the folk who will really be hit by this will be the loyal AMA members...
I tend to agree.

In Canada, the MAAC (umbrella organization similar to the AMA in the USA) has negotiated, and been granted, an exception from Transport Canada. All MAAC members flying at MAAC-approved flying fields and following MAAC-specified safety rules are exempt from the 250 gram limit (and, I think, the requirement to register individually, though I'm not sure about that). I have heard no insane proposals here for individual electronic beacons on every RC plane, either.

Too bad the AMA didn't / couldn't / wouldn't negotiate something similar in the USA. This legal insanity is really going to put the hurt on people who've invested tens of thousands of dollars and many years into the hobby.

-Flieslikeabeagle
Last edited by flieslikeabeagle; Sep 29, 2020 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Typo
Jul 11, 2020, 04:04 PM
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flieslikeabeagle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpw
For now , wind that rubber band ...
...and remember not to dance while winding the rubber band, in case the village lynches you for dancing!

-Flieslikeabeagle
Last edited by flieslikeabeagle; Sep 29, 2020 at 05:59 PM.
Jul 11, 2020, 04:11 PM
treefinder
springer's Avatar
Beagle, banggood has both systems, ibus and servo direct. This one was on the FlySky thread recently: https://m.banggood.com/Flysky-FS2A-4...l?rmmds=search It is parkflyer range only, but tiny and light and 4 channel. Banggood must have a "relationship" with FlySky, as they seem to have lots of FlySky and compatible stuff.


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