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Apr 13, 2020, 01:11 AM
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quad66's Avatar
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2-2.5Ē Ultra-Light Micro Builds


Now that the hype machine has rolled on to 3-4 inch thereís a vacuum forming again in this backyard park friendly segment. So can we start this over and start innovating again?

No?

Well, imma try it anyway.

The picks are of a mock-up that came out of an effbook chat with PJC (project mocking bird) about a light top mount ...

Iím thinking with a 120 frame in 2 mm carbon 4.2 gm and 1.5 gm for top and bottom zip tie canopies. Also If the bottom canopy becomes something more like landing struts then we could even pusher.
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Apr 13, 2020, 02:15 AM
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If we could get the same weightless feel of a 1S 65mm or 3'', then I'm all about it. I would keep it to 1s though. Pusheris a fun idea though
Apr 13, 2020, 04:35 AM
Registered User
2-2.5" - already so much done. I dont forsee much improvement.
FPV cameras down to 1-2g. Slightly smaller frame. Same AIO FC /ESC. Same VTX. Same Canopy.
Only significant difference is motors/props - 3" prop needs bigger motor. And you can always put smaller prop or motor on 3".

What do you gain downsizing from 115mm 3" vs a 100mm 2.5"... ? 15mm?

I warmed up to idea of 4" toothpick, beacuse push AIO/XT30 limit, and still relatively quiet (NIMBY).
Apr 13, 2020, 08:39 AM
Registered User
Quad66 I'm interested in this size as well. I have a 3" and a Mobula 7 and would love something that fits in the middle.
Last edited by benz11; Apr 13, 2020 at 08:58 AM.
Apr 13, 2020, 11:43 AM
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quad66's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by romangpro View Post
2-2.5" - already so much done. I dont forsee much improvement.
FPV cameras down to 1-2g. Slightly smaller frame. Same AIO FC /ESC. Same VTX. Same Canopy.
Only significant difference is motors/props - 3" prop needs bigger motor. And you can always put smaller prop or motor on 3".

What do you gain downsizing from 115mm 3" vs a 100mm 2.5"... ? 15mm?

I warmed up to idea of 4" toothpick, beacuse push AIO/XT30 limit, and still relatively quiet (NIMBY).
We are definitely at the point where its not hard to get the job done but there is still a lot of work to get the job done right.

Props:
One of the biggest issues is that there still isn't a descent triblade for 1103 2S. Sure the 1103 will work with an avan rush or gemfan 2540 but its not quite right the way the 1102 2S spins the whocares, 1103 2S spins the T65, or the way 1204 3S spins the 3016. Getting the balance right makes the quad intuitive, responsive, and forgiving. If you are content with biblades I guess you could argue that whocares, gemfan S, and T65 have the range covered.

Motors:
Amax 1103 in a slightly higher kv 8-9000 (or something equivalent quality and performance). These motors responded really well to 48 khz JESC and have enough efficiency to push the kv to get a little more snap out of them. I realize there are a ton of options out there but the quality control is all over the place and I haven't found a reliable source for thrust data on many of the interesting options.

Connector:
An XT 15 is needed. XT30 is way to bulky and heavy on these quads so that the efficiency gain is not justified at this size. BT2 is probably adequate but not an off the shelf option on descent batteries

FC/AIOs:
Newbeedrone beebrain brushless is getting there on paper (other than price). At this size/weight we need an AIO with either RX or VTX integrated to get the weight down where it needs to be. NBD on the 1S Hummingird seems to have done better on the RX side than other SPIs ... the built in VTX (25-100mw) approach is interesting as well as it cuts down soldering particularly if you use there PNP camera. Most of the 1-2s AIOS need help on the SPI are S-H-50 or higher dead-time. NBD BBBL is S - H - 10, 12 A, and doesn't need a capacitor.

None of the 1-2S options have descent solder pads and they are still oriented for whoop builds and that layout is just a mess.

Frames/Canopies: Most of the light stuff is on a whoop layout, again that layout is a mess. Most of the traditional layouts are too heavy and also a weight distribution mess going too long and too tall. All of this stuff needs to be optimized for the size/weight. There is no point hauling around a couple extra grams on frames and canopies designed to stand up to 3 inch 3S etc.

Cameras: We had the nano 3, but the lens maker went out of business... so it back to the fish eye for now.
Apr 13, 2020, 01:53 PM
Just an earth-bound misfit
With all your frames, builds, and help you've given out, you're playing well above my pay grade . . . I do have a couple Primo3 kits, one's a Whoop already, and the other will be a Pick . . . but . . .

I know they are old news by now, but what's not right with the Kababpick/Primo 65? I have a Primo with 802/16kvs on it, and it flies great, to me, on both 1 or 2S, and only weighs 32.5g. I've been using KK 48mm 3 and 4 blades from their Tiny8 series. The same Primo setup, but with HM 1102/9kvs, and I put a set of Azure 2.5x4.0x3 props on it at 43.5g, and turned it into a completely different critter compared to the bi-blades. You all, I'm sure, fly a whole lot better than me, but now with the tri-blades and more, think they both are really fun light little toys I can fly pretty much anywhere without hurting anything, and both seem to crank along pretty good.

I really didn't like how either Primo flew on the bi-blades, and was ready to reverse engineer them back into a Whoop until I put the tri-blades on them. I've seen a lot of Pick vids with people flying with the bi-blades, so I just thought it's me, and my flying skills, but switching them out to the tri-blades really did turn them into something different, and I wouldn't have guessed I was flying the same quad.

On 1103 motors, I've had a set of Skystars 1103/11kvs on an 85 Whoop with Avan Blurs for almost a year, and fly the krap outta it on 2 & 3S, handles a 650 3S easily, and on 2S, even flies around on a Tattu 800, and gets a good 8 minutes, racing around the whole flight. The motors come down barely warm on 2 or 3S. On 520/600 2S, it still gets 6 minutes, or pushing it, and it's just over 50g.

I'm asking, because I don't know. It's always good to keep progressing and improving, but how much, or what more do you hope to gain in performance/flight-time over your previous designs, or the multitude of the 2Ĺ" Picks out now?
Apr 13, 2020, 03:14 PM
Enjoying every minute of it...
bottom mount but light setup robbed from Mobula6:

MicroHeli Mobula6 Frame Review (7 min 4 sec)


https://www.microheli.com/index.php?...search=mobula6

OH! These just came out for the cam part:

https://www.heli-nation.com/foxeer-n...orescent-green

...got mine from pyrodrone, supposed to be delivered today...
Last edited by grnd flyr; Apr 13, 2020 at 03:18 PM. Reason: edit to add...
Apr 13, 2020, 04:45 PM
Registered User
quad66
Good summary

I think we are on same page.
We need more integration. Like you said about XT30, need everything designed around tiny size.
Apr 13, 2020, 05:09 PM
Just an earth-bound misfit
Quote:
Originally Posted by grnd flyr View Post
bottom mount but light setup robbed from Mobula6:


https://www.microheli.com/index.php?...search=mobula6

OH! These just came out for the cam part:

https://www.heli-nation.com/foxeer-n...orescent-green

...got mine from pyrodrone, supposed to be delivered today...
Just had to post that link, huh . . . now, I gotta get one of those Whoop frames. Have an extra set of the 802/16kvs with nothin' to do with them . . . that looks like it would make a great 1-2S 65, and those ducts might actually do something more than the regular Whoop ducts . . .

That camera does look like it would be a good performer, and was really surprised to see it in a Nano 14x14 size. I got a Foxeer Razer Nano for my Primo 3, and with too much time on my hands, am working my way over to that build . . . hope I still have way too much time to play with it for a long time to come after it's done . . .

Stay safe and well.
Apr 13, 2020, 08:42 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by romangpro View Post
quad66
Good summary

I think we are on same page.
We need more integration. Like you said about XT30, need everything designed around tiny size.
Ws micro deans have been good to me so far albeit only ran 1s with those, I've got some 18g zippy 350 mAh 2s lipos that I was thinking of converting over to the micro deans aswell, I'm pretty sure they'll at the very least be better then the jst rcy's that were on there stock. I've got them rigged up to xt30 right now, plenty of wire lead left on them, if I don't like the micro deans I can always put the xt30s back on it.
Apr 13, 2020, 09:05 PM
FireHawx
FireHawx's Avatar
I agree with you on the bi-blades, I hate they way they fly and they sound like a hive of angry bees. A toothpick should be quiet, right? I use the avan 4b micros on my primo and it's the best, along with the avan 2.5s which are a little faster. But the 4b avan are my go-to now in the 2-2.5 size. They handle the best for backyard/tight space flying. I just don't see any upside to the bi-blades except maybe efficiency?
Apr 14, 2020, 02:07 AM
Registered User
quad66's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_OH View Post
With all your frames, builds, and help you've given out, you're playing well above my pay grade . . . I do have a couple Primo3 kits, one's a Whoop already, and the other will be a Pick . . . but . . .

I know they are old news by now, but what's not right with the Kababpick/Primo 65? I have a Primo with 802/16kvs on it, and it flies great, to me, on both 1 or 2S, and only weighs 32.5g. I've been using KK 48mm 3 and 4 blades from their Tiny8 series. The same Primo setup, but with HM 1102/9kvs, and I put a set of Azure 2.5x4.0x3 props on it at 43.5g, and turned it into a completely different critter compared to the bi-blades. You all, I'm sure, fly a whole lot better than me, but now with the tri-blades and more, think they both are really fun light little toys I can fly pretty much anywhere without hurting anything, and both seem to crank along pretty good.

I really didn't like how either Primo flew on the bi-blades, and was ready to reverse engineer them back into a Whoop until I put the tri-blades on them. I've seen a lot of Pick vids with people flying with the bi-blades, so I just thought it's me, and my flying skills, but switching them out to the tri-blades really did turn them into something different, and I wouldn't have guessed I was flying the same quad.

On 1103 motors, I've had a set of Skystars 1103/11kvs on an 85 Whoop with Avan Blurs for almost a year, and fly the krap outta it on 2 & 3S, handles a 650 3S easily, and on 2S, even flies around on a Tattu 800, and gets a good 8 minutes, racing around the whole flight. The motors come down barely warm on 2 or 3S. On 520/600 2S, it still gets 6 minutes, or pushing it, and it's just over 50g.

I'm asking, because I don't know. It's always good to keep progressing and improving, but how much, or what more do you hope to gain in performance/flight-time over your previous designs, or the multitude of the 2Ĺ" Picks out now?
Iím trying to do things like this:

DVR: SkyRyder 120 1S (4 min 56 sec)


... but faster, crisper, and with less mental effort. (The DVR is from a 1S 1202.5 with 3018 biblades.) For this space my best flying quad is a 30 gm dry weight crazybee F4 1-2S board Geprc 1102 9000kv 65mm whocares biblade press on props flying on 300mah 2 S. Where Iím not entirely satisfied is that I go through these props like crazy because they are so thin. Go up to T65 for durability and the magic is gone. They also leave about 30-40 seconds of efficiency on the table compared to amax 1103 or HM 1102. My amax 1103 build is a better daily flyer type of build as those motors pair better with the T65 but they need 500 - 1000kv more to get a bit more sharpness in the response. Part of the issue on that build is the weight. It comes in at 37 gm dry because itís a mamba 16 x 16 stack and the motors and props all add up.

If I throw the 2.5 avan rush on the amax build the timing goes all to hell because of how long the props take to spool up and down and then at the low end the throttle becomes too on and off so I canít make the little micro adjustments when slaloming and hitting gaps out of a split S. The 2540 also have issue at low throttle in that they just have no off.

I think I keep coming back to the biblades because they have a wider and more consistent dynamic range.

This response is getting to be quite a ramble. Big picture point though is that if you are having fun with ducted quads and big batteries donít worry about any of what Iím saying. Just keep flying and having fun.
Apr 14, 2020, 04:12 AM
Registered User
Quad66 your flying and level of control in that video is amazing and very inspirational, and if you are trying to find a more capable quad than what you currently have then I'm all ears!
Apr 14, 2020, 08:55 AM
Enjoying every minute of it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_OH View Post
Just had to post that link, huh . . . now, I gotta get one of those Whoop frames. Have an extra set of the 802/16kvs with nothin' to do with them . . . that looks like it would make a great 1-2S 65, and those ducts might actually do something more than the regular Whoop ducts . . .

That camera does look like it would be a good performer, and was really surprised to see it in a Nano 14x14 size. I got a Foxeer Razer Nano for my Primo 3, and with too much time on my hands, am working my way over to that build . . . hope I still have way too much time to play with it for a long time to come after it's done . . .

Stay safe and well.
Ah great, glad to do my part in jump starting the economy... As usual, post pics when ya can and that cam looks awesome too, will be able to fly at night too! WOOT!

Stay safe and well to you and all here too!
Apr 14, 2020, 09:00 AM
Enjoying every minute of it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by quad66 View Post
FC/AIOs:
Newbeedrone beebrain brushless is getting there on paper (other than price). At this size/weight we need an AIO with either RX or VTX integrated to get the weight down where it needs to be. NBD on the 1S Hummingird seems to have done better on the RX side than other SPIs ... the built in VTX (25-100mw) approach is interesting as well as it cuts down soldering particularly if you use there PNP camera. Most of the 1-2s AIOS need help on the SPI are S-H-50 or higher dead-time. NBD BBBL is S - H - 10, 12 A, and doesn't need a capacitor.

None of the 1-2S options have descent solder pads and they are still oriented for whoop builds and that layout is just a mess.
Totally agree, no apparent 1 trick pony specialized controller that ticks all the boxes... but I thought I remember, but can't find right now atm, that the emax aio had good ESCs:

EMAX TinyHawk S AIO Flight Controller
https://www.racedayquads.com/collect...troller-vtx-rx

...might be worth looking into....

in the mean time... there's this to consider:

RC Ornithopter Flapping Bionic Radio Control Bird Drone (1 min 41 sec)


MetaFly:Good small Ornithopter (10 min 33 sec)


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XRXKJG4

...different for sure huh...

edit to add... in the interest of keeping everyone safe inside:

Amazing RC Ornithopter like a bird (10 min 0 sec)


...aroung 6:45 when the stragglers show up... just too cool
Last edited by grnd flyr; Apr 14, 2020 at 01:09 PM. Reason: edit to add...


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