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Feb 23, 2020, 06:43 PM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClubFlyer
There are some differences in the timing circuits of the multi cylinder ign and the single ign systems, that is apparent.
No, there aren't, not really. If I follow the instructions for a single output sensor, I get a good running radial, if I follow the instructions for the dual output sensor, I get a radial that is running like crap.

That is my whole point. There are two different sets instructions, while in reality only one set applies.
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Feb 23, 2020, 07:05 PM
Whats that drip ?
ClubFlyer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967Brutus
No, there aren't, not really. If I follow the instructions for a single output sensor, I get a good running radial, if I follow the instructions for the dual output sensor, I get a radial that is running like crap.

That is my whole point. There are two different sets instructions, while in reality only one set applies.
LoL, so the dual sensor works the same as the signal, but with just out of phase triggers. And again something amiss in those instructions

Do you use that LED / Buzzer setup tool, or do you go by the actual initiation of the spark?

See what I do with the older CH stuff is, I unplug the synchro spark, and bypass it all together, then set the degrees in which the spark should occur at 28-34 degrees, via monitoring the actual spark at the plug, lock everything in place and then plug back the synchro spark. I use to check it with a timing light just to make sure, but that method has been so reliable, I don't bother with the timing light anymore.
Feb 24, 2020, 12:40 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
ClubFlyer

I am running an 18 x 6 prop and am totally confused, is this a timing issue or some other problem?

Thanks
Chrisp
Feb 24, 2020, 06:36 AM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClubFlyer

Do you use that LED / Buzzer setup tool, or do you go by the actual initiation of the spark?
I did not have the buzzer initially (so also not the instructions that come with it), so went by the actual spark and set the timing as I was used from the singles.
Engine ran with no problems at all from NIB.

Then I bought the buzzer, for no other reason than that I do a lot of engines for third parties, and I thought it would make timing easier.
I saw the instructions, and checked with what I previously did "on instinct" and found that according to the instructions the timing was totally off.
The exact same story that I read everywhere about Saito radials, everybody claims they are timed off factory at 45 degrees and everybody wondering what that is all about.

So I re-set the timing on my radial according the instructions, and ended up with a totally unusable engine.

Reset to where I think was right, and kept it there, BUT I started asking questions to suppliers, and received zero answers.

To this day, I still do not have an answer, from nobody, to this day I see the claim that Saito times their engines totally wrong, and to this day I am convinced that Saito is not that stupid, and that their engines are actually timed spot on from factory.

All I can do, is keep pointing that out.
Feb 24, 2020, 06:40 AM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisp56
ClubFlyer

I am running an 18 x 6 prop and am totally confused, is this a timing issue or some other problem?

Thanks
Chrisp
Simply check your ACTUAL spark. If it occurs at 13 degrees (as I expect), it is a timing issue. Your engine, being 33 cc, should easily reach at least 8K on an 18 x 6.
Because my ASP Boxer (26 cc) already does 7500 RPM on an APC 18 x 6 wideblade, your engine has almost 25% more displacement. it should spin faster, not slower.
Feb 24, 2020, 02:13 PM
Registered User
" Reset to where I think was right, and kept it there, BUT I started asking questions to suppliers, and received zero answers."

Silence is an answer with some of these mfg's...
Feb 24, 2020, 02:29 PM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ehab
" Reset to where I think was right, and kept it there, BUT I started asking questions to suppliers, and received zero answers."

Silence is an answer with some of these mfg's...
Seems to be… but I would at the very least expect them to issue a revised instruction set.

I also am quite surprised why people like Morris or Adrian are assuming a reputable brand like Saito would set their engines wrong.
I am the first to admit, that I don't take manufacturers instructions at face value or as the be all end all, but at the very least I would first CHECK whether that odd 45 degrees actually IS 45 degrees...
Feb 24, 2020, 03:11 PM
Registered User
I have "heard" many negative comments about Saito Radials ( Ignition and cracked cylinders) but never had one to actually verify any problems. A club member just bought a Saito 33CC triple and sent it to Ray English to fix these "heard of problems" at a claimed update cost of $600-$700!!!!

I know I wouldn't buy a $1100-$1200 Radial only to add about 50% of its cost to fix factory supposed problems. So, for me, something doesn't jive (sp?). I don't know the facts so I hope some one will come forward with actual data so we all learn from it.
Feb 24, 2020, 03:18 PM
Still gassin' it.
That's not only for Saito. Some people rebuild an ASP to solve the unequal fuel distribution. This mod consists of replacing the bulkheads in the engine: the front bulkhead (between distribution box and crankcase) needs to be replaced for a closed one, and the rear bulkhead needs to be replaced to reroute the fresh fuel/air mixture through the crankcase.
Both bearings need to be replaced for sealed ones, and the distribution box needs to be changed such that you can drain and refill an oil charge.

Lot of work, costing a lot of money.

I solved the entire fuel distribution problem in a 20 minute mod (including removing engine from plane, and mounting back) with this:
Feb 24, 2020, 03:35 PM
Registered User
Well, there ya go... you outsmarted them all...Good for ya!
Feb 24, 2020, 03:41 PM
Whats that drip ?
ClubFlyer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967Brutus
I did not have the buzzer initially (so also not the instructions that come with it), so went by the actual spark and set the timing as I was used from the singles.
Engine ran with no problems at all from NIB.

Then I bought the buzzer, for no other reason than that I do a lot of engines for third parties, and I thought it would make timing easier.
I saw the instructions, and checked with what I previously did "on instinct" and found that according to the instructions the timing was totally off.
The exact same story that I read everywhere about Saito radials, everybody claims they are timed off factory at 45 degrees and everybody wondering what that is all about.

So I re-set the timing on my radial according the instructions, and ended up with a totally unusable engine.

Reset to where I think was right, and kept it there, BUT I started asking questions to suppliers, and received zero answers.

To this day, I still do not have an answer, from nobody, to this day I see the claim that Saito times their engines totally wrong, and to this day I am convinced that Saito is not that stupid, and that their engines are actually timed spot on from factory.

All I can do, is keep pointing that out.
Yeah, curious why Adrian didn't get back to you. From what I gathered, the 4 pin dual sensors, are just that ,2 sensor elements in the one plastic package. The elements are spaced less than 1mm apart on top of each other inside that little plastic body (not the holder / bracket). The two sensors are out of phase of course. They are none latching, so their functionality are the same as the single halls sensor, just the dual sensor has 2 signal outputs, one triggered by the south pole, and the frigged by the north, why the setup differences between the duel and single sensor, I haven't the clue. One of these days I'll break down and purchase one of CH's systems with the dual sensor, and see what its all about. Right now I'm running the boxer off of 2 single systems.

I rather time by the actual occurrence of spark and the degree wheel. Then once I have the static timing setup, I'll run the engine, and not only tweak the carb needles, but I will also play with the sensor location on the slotted bracket to see how the engine responds to the timing change at peak rpm. Its hard to do on some engines, in those cases I will stop the engine shift the sensor, and restart. There is a subtle change in engine behaviour believe it or not.
Feb 24, 2020, 03:48 PM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClubFlyer
There is a subtle change in engine behaviour believe it or not.
trust me, I totally believe you… In fact, I don't believe you, I know it to be true….
Feb 24, 2020, 04:44 PM
Whats that drip ?
ClubFlyer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967Brutus
trust me, I totally believe you… In fact, I don't believe you, I know it to be true….
LoL, well yes it would be more apparent 17 degrees off time, but subtle when shifting just a few degrees within 28-34 degrees. On methanol you can push a little bit more advance, but doing so shifts the low end timing.
Feb 24, 2020, 04:48 PM
Still gassin' it.
I know… Timing affects how the engine responds to the needle, but also (for example) how critical it is for the correct prime when handstarting.
Feb 25, 2020, 12:28 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
1967Brutus

[Simply check your ACTUAL spark. If it occurs at 13 degrees (as I expect), it is a timing issue. Your engine, being 33 cc, should easily reach at least 8K on an 18 x 6.
Because my ASP Boxer (26 cc) already does 7500 RPM on an APC 18 x 6 wideblade, your engine has almost 25% more displacement. it should spin faster, not slower. ]

Being new to Radials and Gassers, what is the best way to check the spark, do I do this for all three ignition leads and what should the timing be?

Thanks


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