Thread Tools
This thread is privately moderated by PaulMN, who may elect to delete unwanted replies.
Feb 26, 2020, 10:04 PM
lurking in the HOLE :)
KCV6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by billyd60
Not just flyers, but manufacturers, and other associated businesses. First and foremost day 1 we DEMAND to be shown the risk assessment, that must demonstrate the "dangers" model aircraft pose to the NAS, (as is REQUIRED to create new regulations of any kind), to justify this action.
Pointless, you wouldn't understand it. Sounds harsh, but I'm just being honest. I could do a bullet proof safety case in a couple of hours, that unlike some of my normal safety cases actually has irrefutable examples of catastrophic events.

Here is the deal. All that could be bad has occurred at one time or another so it's a simple case of applying it to the matrix. You can do it yourself if you want billy.

Again I kinda chuckle at no one in particular, but elements of FPV wants traditional to help. Elements of FPV wants to claim the safety record of traditional to do this. But Elements of FPV also wants to point out that traditional is the safety issue?

Truly a tangled web of intrigue.
Last edited by KCV6; Feb 26, 2020 at 10:10 PM.
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Feb 26, 2020, 10:33 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCSGUY
Here's a submission which is arguably an improvement over Dr. Richard's superb work. Only because it's written by a licensed attorney (non-practicing) who's traveled parts of the world pursuing his drone passion. And he's taken the FAA's proposal apart section by section and clearly and concisely exposed it's weaknesses, illogical premises and impractical measures. He's counter proposed in every case well reasoned and referenced alternatives. It's pretty awesome. I don't think the FAA will be able to just ignore this as it clearly sets the stage for the legal actions (with some precedents) which would undermine the NPRM from going into effect as written.

It's worth reading even if only to the hilarious part where he applies the NPRM to the auto industry from which, unlike drones, auto's kill thousands and have actually been "used in terrorist attacks, bank robberies, human trafficing", etc.

Joe
It is a great read. Not sure it's an improvement in the sense that those are the standard arguments, but in greater detail and brilliantly written.
It does bore down into some things in a way I hadn't heard before, like amateur built and registration numbers. I think the big differnce
between Erik Richard's and this is Patrick McKay is a dedicated FPV flyer. It's more visceral, as with this on the public's perception of drones:

"Driven by sensationalized media and paranoid, overblown government responses (such as this very rule) to the advent of drone technology, there
is currently an incredible level of hostility toward drone operators among the general public. In the public’s imagination, drone operators are not
professionals doing a job for a client or hobbyists enjoying an innocent passtime, but creeps, spies, and pedophiles out to spy on them and their
children and do them harm. To them, any drone they see flying overhead is a threat at worst or an annoyance at best, and many consider violence
an appropriate response to this perceived threat."

Edit: Telling the FAA out front you think their NPRM is an "overblown government response" is contrary to all the advice on how to write
comments to regulatory agencies. Same with McKay's first argument after his introduction (1.), "2. No justification for the proposed rule".
I'll be including Erik Richard's as an attachment with my next comment but I wouldn't use McKay's, as fun as it is to read.
Last edited by ECHO24; Feb 27, 2020 at 08:05 AM.
Feb 26, 2020, 10:39 PM
Fill, Sand, Repeat...
E_Richard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECHO24
Hi Erik, I'm going to be the devil's advocte here and say, yes that FPV flight was technically a violation, but I can't really find much else wrong with it. I looked up the location on a map and sectional and it's in the middle of nowhere in central Washington state. I only skipped through it but I didn't see any vehicles on the road he followed. He was mostly around 500' and went up to almost 1,700' at the end trying to catch lift. So that's one thing to pick on, except most of that looked like only a couple of hundred feet AGL. And that leads into the other video you posted on Damon's talk.
True, at the present time I don't think so (and I thought it was both ridiculous and sort of cool. My favorite was the FPV flying by the side of the mountain). Although the BVLOS language in Sec. 349 states otherwise. But my point was that what he is doing is just the kind of activity that the FAA apply RID. He looked somewhat responsible enough, but some other not so inclined FPV'er may decide that it is cool to fly you fixed wing 20 miles away and weave in and out of a city downtown area. I guess what I was concerned about was that it wasn't what we would think of as a "drone"...it looked (and flew like a traditional electric model glider).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECHO24
I usually discount reports supposedly from someone at the FAA (always anonymous). Not because I don't believe them, but because I think most FAA employees don't know any more than we do. In Damon's case, he says his FAA source said (sounds like gossip already) that the FAA has no jurisdiction over the 400' altitude limit in uncontrolled airspace (a statutory law), and that was good enough for him so now he was going to fly Class G to 700' or 1,200'.
I thought that Damon had some interesting info, and his FAA contact may not be in the know. But I do think that it provided some info that would be of interest here. But, you caught on to the thing that I though was most interesting, the Class G info. Uncontrolled means "uncontrolled" in the FAA's comments to him. But the LAW still says 400' max in uncontrolled airspace, so here we are again.
Last edited by E_Richard; Feb 26, 2020 at 10:46 PM.
Feb 26, 2020, 11:02 PM
Registered User
scott page's Avatar
Thanks for the good times in this thread. The time for me to bid ya'll farewell has come. I've made my fourth and last submission to the FAA. It's time for me to wait on the next move from the FAA (in several months perhaps) and enjoy the hobby.

Best of luck all -- please remember that just because it's on youtube doesn't mean it's true or accurate.

Scott --- out.
Feb 26, 2020, 11:50 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott page
Thanks for the good times in this thread. The time for me to bid ya'll farewell has come. I've made my fourth and last submission to the FAA. It's time for me to wait on the next move from the FAA (in several months perhaps) and enjoy the hobby.

Best of luck all -- please remember that just because it's on youtube doesn't mean it's true or accurate.

Scott --- out.
Scott - Thanks for all your insight it's been a pleasure. Keep up the good fight!
Feb 27, 2020, 12:12 AM
Team Futaba
Silent-AV8R's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott page
Thanks for the good times in this thread. The time for me to bid ya'll farewell has come. I've made my fourth and last submission to the FAA. It's time for me to wait on the next move from the FAA (in several months perhaps) .
I don't expect to see anything out of the FAA for at least 2 years, maybe longer.
Feb 27, 2020, 12:27 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott page
Thanks for the good times in this thread. The time for me to bid ya'll farewell has come.

Scott --- out.
Scott, thank you for all your contributions, both in this thread and to model aviation. You've been a thoughtful, positive voice here. I hope you'll join us in the Congressional campaign.
Paul
Feb 27, 2020, 05:52 AM
Registered User
dcrave's Avatar

Lobby the NRA?


If any of our members here also belong to the NRA it might be worth a shot to approach the NRA to fill them in on whatís going on. As this is an intrusion and overreach by the government thatís infringing on our rights they might be interested in putting their weight behind opposing it.

Then again they might not care or be interested in helping but it doesnít hurt to try. One day theyíre taking away our freedoms, the next day it could be theirs
Feb 27, 2020, 06:56 AM
Hey Guys, Watch This.......
mike2663's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcrave
If any of our members here also belong to the NRA it might be worth a shot to approach the NRA to fill them in on what’s going on. As this is an intrusion and overreach by the government that’s infringing on our rights they might be interested in putting their weight behind opposing it.

Then again they might not care or be interested in helping but it doesn’t hurt to try. One day they’re taking away our freedoms, the next day it could be theirs
I keep hearing about our rights are being violated. While I don't care for these regulations at all I'm not buying any of this.
Would you point out where our right to play with toys is protected under the Constitution of the United States I must have missed that. The NRA has the Second Amendment in its favor.

Mike
Feb 27, 2020, 07:20 AM
Multirotors are models too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCV6
Yes the early ATV stuff. Interesting the last paragraph of the article.
What's that interesting about that last paragraph? Just looks like standard disclaimer stuff for activities......
Latest blog entry: Test entry
Feb 27, 2020, 07:21 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2663
I keep hearing about our rights are being violated. While I don't care for these regulations at all I'm not buying any of this.
Would you point out where our right to play with toys is protected under the Constitution of the United States I must have missed that. The NRA has the Second Amendment in its favor.

Mike
Our freedom to fly should certainly fall under the right to life, liberty and especially the pursuit of happieness!
Feb 27, 2020, 07:27 AM
Registered User
dcrave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2663
I keep hearing about our rights are being violated. While I don't care for these regulations at all I'm not buying any of this.
Would you point out where our right to play with toys is protected under the Constitution of the United States I must have missed that. The NRA has the Second Amendment in its favor.

Mike
Obviously there isnít an amendment regarding toy planes, though it could be argued this is infringing on our personal freedoms especially if you are on your own private property. In 1946 US vs Causby the ruling of the Supreme Court declared that an individualís property includes the immediate airspace but is not infinite above that property.
Feb 27, 2020, 07:41 AM
pushing the envelope
rcgroupie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2663
I keep hearing about our rights are being violated. While I don't care for these regulations at all I'm not buying any of this.
Would you point out where our right to play with toys is protected under the Constitution of the United States I must have missed that. The NRA has the Second Amendment in its favor.Mike
Hi Mike,
A little civics lesson, worth a little bit of cross posting here I believe:
The Constitution was never intended to nor does it give anybody any rights - we, the people, already posses those rights. The intent of the founders is more clearly stated in the declaration of independence:
Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...
As an example, consider the huge misconception that freedom OF religion is the same thing as freedom FROM religion. In the early days of our country there were colonies (states) such as VA where there was an official govt. religion (Anglican) and protections were needed for non-Anglicans. Unfortunately, idiots in black robes have decided that schools are religion (and gun) free zones. Ask yourself what could possibly go wrong?
Thus the FAA is taking our God given rights away, even down to grass blade level in our own backyards, and we need to call them out on it in our comments.
Feb 27, 2020, 07:43 AM
lurking in the HOLE :)
KCV6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty105
What's that interesting about that last paragraph? Just looks like standard disclaimer stuff for activities......
lol.... I expected no less
Feb 27, 2020, 07:47 AM
lurking in the HOLE :)
KCV6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy52
Our freedom to fly should certainly fall under the right to life, liberty and especially the pursuit of happieness!
But here is the flipside. All those public that don't like it.... well they have the same right to say no do they not? It's a thin line with a double edge. I would certainly never want to get into a debate over that one as I suspect as a RC enthusiast and FPV enthusiast I would be severely outnumbered. I would rather be a "let me fly and I'll do everything in my power not to piss anyone else off". person. Having said that I'm sure there will be a few here that will want to remind me of just how much I piss them off. lol
Last edited by KCV6; Feb 27, 2020 at 07:54 AM.


Quick Reply
Message:

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion So, what are you going to do if the FAA... Tappet Fuel Jet Talk 14 Yesterday 09:34 AM
Discussion What are we going to do about all the illegal Asians invading our country? rockyboy2 Life, The Universe, and Politics 4 Jul 06, 2018 03:13 PM
Discussion So a Wall to keep out the Mexicans...what are we going to do about the dang Asian's ? rockyboy2 Life, The Universe, and Politics 1 Nov 04, 2017 04:18 PM
Discussion So, what are the libs going to do when Ankles steals the nomination~ Super Delegates? Dave Campbell Life, The Universe, and Politics 22 Feb 12, 2016 12:45 PM
Discussion Looks like the Russians are going to do what Obama wouldn't or couldn't about ISIS. Dave Barrow Life, The Universe, and Politics 17 Sep 25, 2015 03:37 AM