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Dec 13, 2019, 06:19 AM
What goes up, hopefully lands!
Repaid1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by recwap
I have the Mavic Mini, it is nice to have such small drone, but it has poor wind resistance....
I'm still seeing video's of flights at a 20MPH sustained and higher in gusts that the Mini is doing fine for what it is. I wouldn't fly anything with a sustained 20MPH wind and that is my base P3P that I fly most often. Yes I have flown in wind that high, but better be for a pretty good reason and need. I am starting to think that people are getting a bit lax in flying skill and depending to much on GPS hold. Even so a Mini has been shown to hold position in 20MPH sustained. So if it gust off of that it will then fight back to that point of hover... If not Drop it to sports mode and fly your butt home
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Dec 13, 2019, 10:53 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by fanedi
we want a 200$ Zino Mini 4K
The current Zino is on sale for $219. There already is a pretty solid 4k drone for ~$200. And the ino takes pretty darn good videos for the price
Dec 13, 2019, 11:04 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by syotr
Of course they are still making a profit at this price. Their fixed costs for things like design, tooling, patterns, software, support and such would be as much as DJI but spread over a much smaller quantity of sales. Yet they still can sell at this price and make a profit.
When you look at the Mavic Mini which is 1/4 the weight, smaller motors, smaller batteries, no obstacle avoidance, no 4K, no 4K60, less flight time, less range, less speed and no display in the controller, you realize how overpriced it is. These things probably don't cost $200 to make.
DJI also pays taxes when the device is sold (customs, VAT, etc), has real warranties and a support/sales organization in most countries. A direct-from-China drone with no warranty and no real support will always cost much less. But also will never be a mainstream drone

In electronics making something smaller and lighter actually costs more than making it big I'm pretty sure that while the DJI cost for the MM is lower than the Zino 2, if Hubsan or anyone else were to make a MM, their cost would be higher than the Zino 2 manufacturing cost

The biggest problem in the market now is that unless you do something totally different like Skydio 2 has done, there is no way for anyone to compete with DJI on price. If any of these low cost drones were to sell in any volume and start making inroads against DJI, they could lower the price and still make a hefty profit, while the other manufacturer would lose money. They did it before to the Solo. For exaDJI could easily cut the price in half and still make money. They don't do it, because there simply is a real competitor in local markets

Only by limiting sales to China-direct, these competitors can maintain attractive prices, but direct-from-China will never achieve big volumes: the average buyer (i.e. not the ones on Rcgroups) buys what is available locally or sold by local shops. Not everyone would trust sending $400 to China and wait a month for the delivery. Which unfortunately means no competition and DJI is not dropping prices or pushing the envelope. Skydio 2 is pretty exceptional because it offers a completely innovative platform at a very attractive price. The old Skydio offered something unique, but at a price point that wasn't interesting to the average buyer
Dec 13, 2019, 03:16 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by robca
Only by limiting sales to China-direct, these competitors can maintain attractive prices, but direct-from-China will never achieve big volumes: the average buyer (i.e. not the ones on Rcgroups) buys what is available locally or sold by local shops. Not everyone would trust sending $400 to China and wait a month for the delivery. Which unfortunately means no competition and DJI is not dropping prices or pushing the envelope.
The Chinese drones don't sell anywhere near as much as what some people here think for exactly your reasons stated.

However, having a global presence, marketing and logistics etc costs an awful LOT of money. DJI are sat firmly on the top of that hill.
Dec 13, 2019, 03:20 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by robca
DJI also pays taxes when the device is sold (customs, VAT, etc), has real warranties and a support/sales organization in most countries. A direct-from-China drone with no warranty and no real support will always cost much less. But also will never be a mainstream drone

In electronics making something smaller and lighter actually costs more than making it big I'm pretty sure that while the DJI cost for the MM is lower than the Zino 2, if Hubsan or anyone else were to make a MM, their cost would be higher than the Zino 2 manufacturing cost

The biggest problem in the market now is that unless you do something totally different like Skydio 2 has done, there is no way for anyone to compete with DJI on price. If any of these low cost drones were to sell in any volume and start making inroads against DJI, they could lower the price and still make a hefty profit, while the other manufacturer would lose money. They did it before to the Solo. For exaDJI could easily cut the price in half and still make money. They don't do it, because there simply is a real competitor in local markets

Only by limiting sales to China-direct, these competitors can maintain attractive prices, but direct-from-China will never achieve big volumes: the average buyer (i.e. not the ones on Rcgroups) buys what is available locally or sold by local shops. Not everyone would trust sending $400 to China and wait a month for the delivery. Which unfortunately means no competition and DJI is not dropping prices or pushing the envelope. Skydio 2 is pretty exceptional because it offers a completely innovative platform at a very attractive price. The old Skydio offered something unique, but at a price point that wasn't interesting to the average buyer
I have been in engineering and manufacturing all of my career, everything from optical and electronics to heavy machinery. Making things smaller and lighter only costs more in the fixed design cost. Unless you have to make the parts out of carbon fiber or other expensive material, a larger part will cost more for material than a smaller one. Design cost is distributed over however many of the product you sell. If you are DJI and sell a million Mavics, the design cost is pennies. If you are Hubsan, and sell 10, 000 Zino2's, your design cost per product sold will 100 times that of DJI.
Tooling costs will be similar for both products but again distributed over sales volume, so DJI's cost per item sold will be 1/100th of Hubsan's.
Assembly costs would be similar, however, DJI's production is probably more automated making their cost less per item sold.
As far as the physical product, that leaves material cost. The Zino weighs 4 times as much so the material cost will be on that order of magnitude more.
As far as distribution/delivery, if I buy one Zino from China, they have to package and ship that one item directly to me. That has to be more expensive than shipping container loads of Mavics to a distributor in the US.
As far as batteries, the Mavic Mini is using 18650 cells which are mass produced in such quantity now that they cost almost nothing, way less than what a larger, more powerful Zino battery must cost.
So I don't buy the argument that being smaller should make the Mini more expensive.
Oh, and as far as warranty, DJI is making a killing on that.
Dec 13, 2019, 04:01 PM
Registered User
So all of that is based on economies of scale.

You need to have the money to be at that end of the scale to begin with as well as be able to sell the volumes.
Dec 13, 2019, 05:51 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by syotr
I have been in engineering and manufacturing all of my career, everything from optical and electronics to heavy machinery. Making things smaller and lighter only costs more in the fixed design cost. Unless you have to make the parts out of carbon fiber or other expensive material, a larger part will cost more for material than a smaller one. Design cost is distributed over however many of the product you sell. If you are DJI and sell a million Mavics, the design cost is pennies. If you are Hubsan, and sell 10, 000 Zino2's, your design cost per product sold will 100 times that of DJI.
Tooling costs will be similar for both products but again distributed over sales volume, so DJI's cost per item sold will be 1/100th of Hubsan's.
Assembly costs would be similar, however, DJI's production is probably more automated making their cost less per item sold.
As far as the physical product, that leaves material cost. The Zino weighs 4 times as much so the material cost will be on that order of magnitude more.
As far as distribution/delivery, if I buy one Zino from China, they have to package and ship that one item directly to me. That has to be more expensive than shipping container loads of Mavics to a distributor in the US.
As far as batteries, the Mavic Mini is using 18650 cells which are mass produced in such quantity now that they cost almost nothing, way less than what a larger, more powerful Zino battery must cost.
So I don't buy the argument that being smaller should make the Mini more expensive.
Oh, and as far as warranty, DJI is making a killing on that.
Tooling and building PCBs cost depends on the sophistication you require. If you use "commodity" production and components, your cost is lower than if you require state of the art PCB manufacturing. Smaller and lighter gimbals require much higher precision manufacturing.

I have been working for tens of years in the smartphone field. Producing a cutting edge phone just a few cubic mm smaller and a few grams lighter costs a lot more than a "commodity smartphone" just a bit bigger/heavier. A lot. Especially if you cannot promise enough volume. Any other smaller OEMs building a state of the art Samsung or iPhone device would have higher BOM cost, let alone be able to get access to cutting edge components usually reserved for key customers. Electronics components are not priced by weight, so the fact that the Zino weighs more makes no cost difference, outside of requiring bigger motors and batteries, which as usual impose their own penalty. There is a reason why nobody else can make a sub-250g drone like the MM apart from DJI. If your reasoning were correct, all the chinese OEMs would have already built super cheap sub-250g drones to save money and increase profit. They simply do not have access to the technology and cost break that DJI has. There isn't a single OEM outside DJI that can build something like the MM. Look no further than the Fimi A3, a much more compromised design that weighs 560g. Heck, there isn't a single Chinese drone that can compete with the Mavic Air on features and weight (neither the X8 nor the Zino has obstacle avoidance). And the MA weighs even less than the Fimi A3

DJI offers a free 1 year warranty, that's what I was referring to. And, yes, shipping a single drone costs more than a drone shipped as part of a pallet, but when you receive a drone in the USA or Europe, Banggood evades customs duties (and sales taxes), so that's a pretty big savings compared to a company like DJI that has to pay custom duties and the additional idiotic tariffs. Plus DJI employes a lot of people in every country, not to mention the resellers operate on higher margins than Chinese sellers. When you buy direct from DJI you actually increase their profitability. The DJI price is set so that other distribution channels can also have their own profit. DJI cannot undercut their resellers.

To be clear: I see it as a negative for this market that DJI has such a price advantage. They are like Amazon in a way, and can undercut any competitor due to their lower costs. The only way to compete with DJI is either going the Skydio route, or flying below the volume that DJI starts noticing, or have a huge war chest to afford losing money for 2-3 years (look at the Solo, though, well funded as they were). If any of the lower cost drones started selling in numbers high enough to touch the DJI market, they could drop prices and drive them out

BTW: the MM would be ~$75 cheaper if it were not for tariffs. Usually DJI drones are cheaper in the USA than in Canada, due to Canadian GST. Right now the MM is $50 cheaper in Canada
Last edited by robca; Dec 13, 2019 at 05:57 PM.
Dec 13, 2019, 06:08 PM
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Justapoke's Avatar
And here we go again, next thread full of offtopic DJI talk.
Dec 13, 2019, 06:53 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by robca
To be clear: I see it as a negative for this market that DJI has such a price advantage. They are like Amazon in a way, and can undercut any competitor due to their lower costs. The only way to compete with DJI is either going the Skydio route, or flying below the volume that DJI starts noticing, or have a huge war chest to afford losing money for 2-3 years (look at the Solo, though, well funded as they were). If any of the lower cost drones started selling in numbers high enough to touch the DJI market, they could drop prices and drive them out
DJI make a premium product and have no reason or need to get into price wars and they have no interest competing with cheap Chinese products. They are out on their own and sitting pretty.

They won't see the Hubsan as direct competition as the volumes are insignificant compared to DJI

The Chinese budget drones mainly occupy the $400 market and the Zino 2 looks to be a killer drone with that camera at under $400. It will probably kill off all the Chinese drones around that price very quickly and eat up the X8.

DJI jhave nothing to worry about and nor do Hubsan but the likes of Fimi look finished if they can't bring out a competing product. The X8 for example looks dated and far too expensive up against the Zino 2 spec.

The Zino 2 looks set to be a fantastic drone in its own right at this price. I think Hubsan could be onto a real winner.
Dec 14, 2019, 02:11 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
DJI, is also a Chinese brand! And, yes we have to admit that hey are the King of the drone market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ekkostar
DJI make a premium product and have no reason or need to get into price wars and they have no interest competing with cheap Chinese products. They are out on their own and sitting pretty.

They won't see the Hubsan as direct competition as the volumes are insignificant compared to DJI

The Chinese budget drones mainly occupy the $400 market and the Zino 2 looks to be a killer drone with that camera at under $400. It will probably kill off all the Chinese drones around that price very quickly and eat up the X8.

DJI jhave nothing to worry about and nor do Hubsan but the likes of Fimi look finished if they can't bring out a competing product. The X8 for example looks dated and far too expensive up against the Zino 2 spec.

The Zino 2 looks set to be a fantastic drone in its own right at this price. I think Hubsan could be onto a real winner.
Dec 14, 2019, 05:10 AM
Registered User

Zino, X8SE, Zino 2 talk


Quote:
Originally Posted by robca
The current Zino is on sale for $219. There already is a pretty solid 4k drone for ~$200. And the Zino takes pretty darn good videos for the price
I loaded up a cart during the Black Friday sales with a Zino, two extra batts and official case for $309 USD total. I didn't buy it, but I was marveling at the price of this entry-level, 4k, fly-more combo.

Sorry the screenshot doesn't show everything...but trust me it was an epic moment, because I'm at least somewhat impressed with the admittedly soft and muddy 4k footage from the original Zino (and Zino Pro). It would suffice for most non-pro use; and to the untrained eye. That's much more than I could say for the past generations of so-called, entry-level, camera drones (MJX Bugs series, etc).

I do find myself recommending the Zino to folks with a strict $300 budget, but with the caveats that (1) firmware updates are difficult, (2) cinematic footage is difficult to achieve with the toy-grade controller, and (3) range could be an issue for some.

The Zino 2 will certainly affect pricing on the Fimi X8 SE. Just as the X8 seemed to affect the original Zino's pricing. At this point, sales should cease on the X8 until pricing drops to $330 or less, due to the presale pricing of the Zino 2.
Last edited by wingsfromheaven; Dec 14, 2019 at 05:27 AM. Reason: wording
Dec 14, 2019, 06:51 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by recwap
DJI, is also a Chinese brand! And, yes we have to admit that hey are the King of the drone market.
DJI is not a cheap Chinese brand and they have an established global presence, that's the difference
Dec 14, 2019, 06:56 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingsfromheaven
The Zino 2 will certainly affect pricing on the Fimi X8 SE. Just as the X8 seemed to affect the original Zino's pricing. At this point, sales should cease on the X8 until pricing drops to $330 or less, due to the presale pricing of the Zino 2.
I agree for sure and this was discussed in the X8 thread a short while ago somewhat. In the current market the X8 is looking like a $300-320 drone now.

Either way both the Zino and the Zino 2 pricing has made the X8 look a bit of a dead duck now. Its a double whammy for Fimi who's only way out of it is now probably heavy discounting.
Dec 14, 2019, 08:51 AM
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Justapoke's Avatar
Realitycheck for the Fimi haters: The X8 is still $438,- and for now I see no reason for a price drop. With any luck there might be some $409,- coupons again, check the X8 thread for that.

Build quality is on a way higher level than the Hubsan's, proven solid hardware after a year, better app, and do not forget best transmitter on the market!

The Zino Pro was announced some time ago, it did not effect the Fimi X8 price, and not a lot showed actual interest in the Pro.

The DJI mini has been available for weeks now, still did not effect pricing on the X8.
(Not that strange, compared to the X8 the mini is also more a toy / beginner drone)

Only thing the Zino2 has to offer above the X8 is 4k/60 instead of 4K/30 but I doubt a lot will ever use that. Strangely nobody cared the DJI mini has only 2.7K

Apples and pears, the Fimi X8 is up to date still the only low-cost alternative for a Mavic Pro if you want desent build-quality and good performance. Also in wind!
It also has a huge and active user base (with a few trolls here and there) and rather good support direct from Fimi. (Hubsan customer support is non-existing)

If you must: the Zino2 is already available for pre-order at $360 on gearbest, but nobody in theire right mind should order one there. You money will probably be gone for 6 months!

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...Thread/page153

My advise would be to wait for it's real release (that's probably around mid-summer 2020 ?) and order from Banggood.
Last edited by Justapoke; Dec 14, 2019 at 09:06 AM.
Dec 14, 2019, 01:40 PM
St. Augustine, FL
Amazing, just amazing, a new round of drone pre-order mania is just getting started. Last December I pre-ordered the ZINO from Banggood with expected delivery in February 2019. Well, by April of 1019 and still no ZINO as well as horrible first reviews I cancelled the order and ordered the X8-SE which took another 3 months to get it.

There is little reason to think the release of the ZINO-2 will be any different than the release of the ZINO, which was close to a disaster and I think the release of the ZINO-2 will be a repeat as Hubsan has a history of this. The same thing occurred with the H501S when during the first year fly-aways were a common ocurrance but after a year or so the H501S became one of the best in it's class at the time. I like Hubsan products and learned to fly quads with their mini quads (H107 Series) with no GPS or altitude hold. I still have 3 H501SS models and still fly them for fun. One thing I liked about the H501SS models is the user could turn GPS hold on and off while in flight and concentrate on flying the thing and if you got into trouble you could simply turn GPS back on and the quad would lock into it's current position. If you can fly quads with no GPS or altitude hold you have accomplished something because it's a whole new ball game. I might be interested in the ZINO-2 for the right price but not until it's a proven product. When thinking about pre-ordering these quads two sayings come to mind. Doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result (Insanity) and Those who do not learn from history are destined repeat it.
Last edited by SaltLife; Dec 14, 2019 at 02:17 PM.


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