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Dec 10, 2019, 06:33 AM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike3976
O M G! It's the same old bla, bla, bla, gasoline is superior to methonal because availability, cost, smell, etc, etc. Methonal runs cooler, with more power than gasoline, and has been used without CDI for decades, It Is a Suprememum Fuel, and easily obtainable in most of the U.S. if ones looks outside of hobby sources. Gasoline is for mowers and leaf lowers, not model planes! Of course, those that are in restricted political environments that prevent the purchase of methanol, may be forced to use gasoline due to lack of availability. But should not be touted as superior! Our toy engines may be fine pieces of engineering marvel, designed for methanol fuel........why change?

And for those with extra pocket change, add some nitro for that extra kick! Why?.......because We Can!
Wow... almost as if you have stock in a glow fuel manufacturer or something...

Cool it, man! If you don't like reading about it, feel free to not open threads with titles that contain the words "gasoline" and "conversion", OK?
Notice how you are the only one ranting like this here? At least Gary has his arguments, and at least they in and of themselves are valid ones.

Nobody, literally NOBODY cares that methanol is more powerful than gasoline, because at least 80% of all RC worldwide nowadays is electrics, and why? Because electrics is more powerful than Methanol. So if you want to rant, rant about that, because nobody else is. We need some more ranting in that department.

Don't bring in politics either, it has nothing to do with that, and let me remind you that it is predominantly the US posters that complain about the UNavaillability of glowfuel, the high Hazmat costs for delivery or the huge distances (100 miles plus) from home to nearest selling point.

In Europe, glow fuel is as availlable as it has always been, it is just (very) inconvenient.
Last edited by 1967Brutus; Dec 10, 2019 at 07:00 AM.
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Dec 10, 2019, 06:39 AM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AA5BY
Question... does this modulator replace the HS needle or does it work in conjunction with and simply have the ability to lean the engine from where the HS needle is set?
It works best in conjunction with the needles. It can theoretically work alone, but that goes at cost of resolution and adjustability.

The main function is not to correct idle or full throttle mixture, but the mixture at part throttle. That is why you MUST have a transmitter with good mixer and curve functions, in order to adjust mixture at any random throttle position.

The result, if set properly, is immediately visible in exhaust residue colour and spark plug cleanliness, and it greatly improves throttle response in the lower throttle region.
It also significantly improves fuel economy even further.
Dec 10, 2019, 07:13 AM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim.Thompson
Its good to read more of your posts again.
I have a 40 cc Kioritz industrial engine converted to aero application, powering my 1/4 scale tug plane (Spacewalker).
It has roller bearings top and bottom of the crank. Very nicely engineered (with 3 piston rings).
During our recent festival, we flew it towing gliders and put about 4 litres of fuel through it.
The fuel mix was AvaGas and Stihl Ultra mixed @ 30:1.

Questions:

1. Is this mix too oil rich?
I have tried running it on the bench using both 40:1 and alternatively, 30: 1 AvGas and Stihl Ultra.
RPM figures were the same, or very nearly so - no distinguishable difference.
Nope, it is quite OK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim.Thompson
2. Do you recommend I use 40:1 instead?
I won't recommend either way, that is, given that the engine will most likely run perfectly fine within the range of 30:1 till 50:1 (the latter provided an absolutely good oil quality), and the differences most likely will be subtle changes in tunability and running behaviour (think: changes in midrange burping, throttle response, that kind of thing), so it is more a matter of personal preference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim.Thompson
I have two other roller bearing engine, a 25 cc Chinese two stroke in the process of conversion and a nice 30cc OPS MAXI converted to CDI/spark ignition.
Same recommendation for these?
Basically, yes, but of course it also depends on the build quality (material quality, tolerances etc). The Chinese one is perhaps maybe less durably built, so I would tend to use a bit more oil (30:1) and the OPS, being designed for the lower temperatures of Methanol, I would do the same. But that is just guessing and gutfeeling from my side, to be honest.

So if that Kioritz runs to your satisfaction, you can run all engines on the same mix and keep it at 30:1. It's what I would do, since (within reason) more oil has never hurt an engine, less oil has....
Dec 10, 2019, 07:57 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike3976
O M G! It's the same old bla, bla, bla, gasoline is superior to methonal because availability, cost, smell, etc, etc. Methonal runs cooler, with more power than gasoline, and has been used without CDI for decades, It Is a Suprememum Fuel, and easily obtainable in most of the U.S. if ones looks outside of hobby sources. Gasoline is for mowers and leaf lowers, not model planes! Of course, those that are in restricted political environments that prevent the purchase of methanol, may be forced to use gasoline due to lack of availability. But should not be touted as superior! Our toy engines may be fine pieces of engineering marvel, designed for methanol fuel........why change?

And for those with extra pocket change, add some nitro for that extra kick! Why?.......because We Can!
This thread is specifically about converting an engine to use a different type of fuel than it was designed to use. Comments like yours do not add to the conversation and are off topic please refrain from those types of comments as this thread has been very informative with the exception of your comment. If you have anything useful to add feel free to join in. If not, please post elsewhere.

Also, my engine arrived this morning and it looks and feels nice.



Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Last edited by raleighcopter; Mar 03, 2020 at 10:36 PM.
Dec 10, 2019, 08:06 AM
One of the worlds best hobbies
Gary Cee's Avatar
Sweet looking engine there.

Just like the OS Gemini; this thread indeed has a lot of potential.

Regarding oil content, It is rare indeed that too much oil causes harm to these tiny engines. It may however have negative effects on the engine's running character.
Dec 10, 2019, 08:31 AM
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967Brutus
... The need for a heat insulator is depending on the specific engine design ...
What about climate, Oldeberkoop ↔ Raleigh?

Mei freonlike groetnis Ron
Last edited by Ron van Sommeren; Dec 10, 2019 at 08:45 AM.
Dec 10, 2019, 08:40 AM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron van Sommeren
What about climate, Oldeberkoop ↔ Raleigh?


Mei freonlike groetnis Ron
Climate would only play a role if Raleigh would burn the fuel bought at MY local gas station, at HIS location and climate. Because gasoline is blended tailored to local climates and if needed, even to the season. But I guess that is very unlikely to happen

I have one engine that I relocated from cold drizzly Holland to hot, tropical Indonesia, and as long as I run dutch gasoline in the Netherland, or local Indonesian gasoline in Indonesia, that same engine behaves the same.

Things might change a bit when taking environmental regulations into account, perhaps. So far, the change from 5% Ethanol to 10% Ethanol that we saw in the Netherlands did not make one iota of difference in how my engines ran, I only needed to open the needles ever so slightly. Everything else remained the same.
Last edited by 1967Brutus; Dec 10, 2019 at 09:01 AM.
Dec 10, 2019, 08:45 AM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raleighcopter
This thread is specifically about converting an engine to use a different type of fuel than it was designed to use, whether That's a glow engine running on gasoline or gasoline engine running on glow fuel. Comments like yours do not add to the conversation and are off topic please refrain from those types of comments as this thread has been very informative with the exception of your comment. If you have anything useful to add feel free to join in. If not, please post elsewhere.

Also, my engine arrived this morning and it looks and feels nice.



Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

I see you have the older airbleed carb. In itself not modifyable to gasoline, but I see no reason whatsoever why it would not work just as well with the solenoid valve.

Other than that, based on appearance that to me seems like a low time engine judging by the dusty look and the absence of crud and colours.
Nice find!
Dec 10, 2019, 08:46 AM
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967Brutus
Wow... almost as if you have stock in a glow fuel manufacturer or something ... Cool it, man! If you don't like reading about it, feel free to not open threads with titles that contain the words "gasoline" and "conversion", OK? ...
+1!
Posts like that are the bane of fora. Nothing useful, nothing new/creative/inventive to add to the discussion, only negativity!

Vriendeljke groeten Ron
Dec 10, 2019, 08:58 AM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Cee
It may however have negative effects on the engine's running character.
It does, but nothing really shocking or conspicuous. When I went from 5:1 to 10:1, it really needed a couple of hours on each engine before I could hesitantly conclude that "it seems the engines are overall slightly happier".
Way less conspicuous than, for example the difference between a wrong glowplug and the correct one, or the difference between 0% Nitro and 10%, things that have an instant effect, if that makes any sense.

When I halved the oil content, I needed (of course) to retune the needles a bit (but less than I expected) and the behaviour changed gradually over time. Can't even put my finger on what exactly changed. I guess it was a bit like the difference between an engine fresh of the testbench versus an engine with 10 hours of flighttime on it.

I tried 15:1 for a short time in one of my engines, and it did not do much, other than make the engine feel a bit dry when cold, so I kept it at 10:1

I have run two of the larger SuperTigres, and a few of the Saito's over 125, and those, without a doubt, seem to feel happier from the get-go on 15:1. Snappier, more responsive.
Dec 10, 2019, 09:51 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967Brutus
I see you have the older airbleed carb. In itself not modifyable to gasoline, but I see no reason whatsoever why it would not work just as well with the solenoid valve.



Other than that, based on appearance that to me seems like a low time engine judging by the dusty look and the absence of crud and colours.

Nice find!
I've been looking for one for several years. Yes, the main reason that I want to try your solenoid valve modification is because I do have an air bleed carburetor and I'm hoping to make it all work without buying a new carb. If it does work, your $75 part becomes extremely cost effective.

I'll start looking for ignition parts next and I'll hopefully have them in the next three weeks to a month. That means that I'll have the ignition installed sometime towards the end of January which is perfect timing to go with your estimated February timeframe when the solenoid valve will be available.

This is turning into what will be a rather fun winter project. Thanks go to everyone here for all the advice and support.

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Dec 10, 2019, 11:36 AM
One of the worlds best hobbies
Gary Cee's Avatar
Raleigh:

You may also consider adapting a two needle from a similar displacement engine . If you need any help with fabrication, just speak up.







Quote:
Originally Posted by 1967Brutus
It does, but nothing really shocking or conspicuous. When I went from 5:1 to 10:1, it really needed a couple of hours on each engine before I could hesitantly conclude that "it seems the engines are overall slightly happier".
Way less conspicuous than, for example the difference between a wrong glowplug and the correct one, or the difference between 0% Nitro and 10%, things that have an instant effect, if that makes any sense.

When I halved the oil content, I needed (of course) to retune the needles a bit (but less than I expected) and the behaviour changed gradually over time. Can't even put my finger on what exactly changed. I guess it was a bit like the difference between an engine fresh of the testbench versus an engine with 10 hours of flighttime on it.

I tried 15:1 for a short time in one of my engines, and it did not do much, other than make the engine feel a bit dry when cold, so I kept it at 10:1

I have run two of the larger SuperTigres, and a few of the Saito's over 125, and those, without a doubt, seem to feel happier from the get-go on 15:1. Snappier, more responsive.
Oh, when it gets excessive past a certain point, it may prove to be very troublesome
We had a fellow at the field running an FG 30 Saito , well trying to run a FG30 with far less than happy results. Idle was nearly impossible and peak power was not powerful. He tried tank changes, carb work, different timing all seemed to make things worse, At one point , another fellow , short on fuel for his FG 30 borrowed a tankful from the unhappy FG 30 owner. That engine fell flat on its face too. Fuel problems became instant suspect. The owner then admitted he had used "extra oil" to prolong the life of his treasured engine. Never considered that a problem! He would never admit just how much "extra" he added. It would be nice to know. A switch to the factory suggested oil content fixed all the running issues.

I have been very pleased with 14% oil over the long haul in methanol fueled, medium to large four strokes. 12% synthetic and 2% castor. Absolutely no indication of unusual wear. As you put it "Snappier, more responsive" Yes, that too



Keep it going, this will be a top thread!
Dec 10, 2019, 12:24 PM
Still gassin' it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Cee
Oh, when it gets excessive past a certain point, it may prove to be very troublesome
We had a fellow at the field running an FG 30 Saito , well trying to run a FG30 with far less than happy results. Idle was nearly impossible and peak power was not powerful. He tried tank changes, carb work, different timing all seemed to make things worse, At one point , another fellow , short on fuel for his FG 30 borrowed a tankful from the unhappy FG 30 owner. That engine fell flat on its face too. Fuel problems became instant suspect. The owner then admitted he had used "extra oil" to prolong the life of his treasured engine. Never considered that a problem! He would never admit just how much "extra" he added. It would be nice to know. A switch to the factory suggested oil content fixed all the running issues.

I have been very pleased with 14% oil over the long haul in methanol fueled, medium to large four strokes. 12% synthetic and 2% castor. Absolutely no indication of unusual wear. As you put it "Snappier, more responsive" Yes, that too



Keep it going, this will be a top thread!
No doubt about that… I believe, I only ran the .52, the .91 and the .30 on 5:1, and the last two only fairly short.
I think the Boxer would have had issues, but by that time I allready switched to 10:1, and all engines handled that perfectly fine.
IIRC it was the 91 that was giving me the impression that 5:1 was too much, running a bit like it was overcompressed.

Too bad your flying buddy never mentioned how much oil he was using, that kind of info to me Always is interesting.

I have run my (at that time) glow OS FS91 Surpass on 10% all synthetic from the moment it left the testbench (break in on 15% all castor) and I have flown that for many years. On glow, that was OK, but when I later went to spark and 0% Nitro, I had to slightly increase oil content on account of the strongly reduced fuel consumption. That brought me to the conclusion that not so much oil percentage was the leading number, but sheer oil volume per minute.

But working with oil flow per unit of time is completely unworkable because the oil requirement of an engine depends on so many factors that it becomes totally unpredictable, and it would need a separate load dependent oil injection system. Now I know you like simplicity so for you probably the mere thought of that would be sheer horror, but I have to admit that even for me, using such a system would border on insanity

It would be a mighty interesting experiment though….. Nah, I'll pass....
Dec 10, 2019, 01:02 PM
Registered User
AA5BY's Avatar
We've covered a lot of this ground previously on oil requirement differences between gas and glow fuel. Some have argued that methanol has less inherent lube qualities of gas and thus has to be compensated for that difference. 20:1 gas mix has 5% oil and 15:1 6.7% so not a huge difference. 40:1 that is used in most commercial 2 stroke model gas engines has 2.5%.

My weed trimmer is 40 years old and has been used every summer with 2.5% oil and continues to run as good as the day it was new, albeit several carb rebuilds since.

My take is that most of our wear concerns are probably related to glow fuel and likely the rust that occurs within them that is not a problem for gas fuel.

I recall before the conversions started popping up that there was a lot of concern about converting engines to gas and whether they would get lubed adequately and run cool enough. I've not converted a two stroke model engine to gas and dealt with the gas mix having to lubricate the big end. All the conversions I've done have been four strokes which are lubricated by blow by, which likely has a much higher oil content than 2 stroke mix.

Bert on the other hand has converted two stroke model engines to gas, and I suspect we are talking a different ball game as far as oil percentage in the gas mix as it is the gas mix that is lubing the big end, compared to the blow by mix that lubes the four strokers.
Dec 10, 2019, 01:07 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Cee
Raleigh:

You may also consider adapting a two needle from a similar displacement engine . If you need any help with fabrication, just speak up.









Oh, when it gets excessive past a certain point, it may prove to be very troublesome
We had a fellow at the field running an FG 30 Saito , well trying to run a FG30 with far less than happy results. Idle was nearly impossible and peak power was not powerful. He tried tank changes, carb work, different timing all seemed to make things worse, At one point , another fellow , short on fuel for his FG 30 borrowed a tankful from the unhappy FG 30 owner. That engine fell flat on its face too. Fuel problems became instant suspect. The owner then admitted he had used "extra oil" to prolong the life of his treasured engine. Never considered that a problem! He would never admit just how much "extra" he added. It would be nice to know. A switch to the factory suggested oil content fixed all the running issues.

I have been very pleased with 14% oil over the long haul in methanol fueled, medium to large four strokes. 12% synthetic and 2% castor. Absolutely no indication of unusual wear. As you put it "Snappier, more responsive" Yes, that too



Keep it going, this will be a top thread!
Thank you, Gary. This community is really great. I will certainly take you up on that generous offer if the valve and air bleed carb proves insufficient, but I'd like to see if just the stock carb and valve is a reliable solution first. It would certainly make converting these little engines available to many more hobbyists if it is. Getting an ignition working on these engines is fairly simple (not to mention there are already ignition conversion kits available commercially)

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