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Mar 12, 2005, 02:03 AM
Our Daddy and Heli Junkie
Fred Bronk's Avatar

What's the interest in a new heli on the market? Part 2

Here you go guys, part 2.

Part 1
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Mar 12, 2005, 03:22 AM
Destroyer of G-10
askman's Avatar
Thanks for the new thread. well, I need more threaded rod before I can complete it. will be tomorrow morning. tiny bit of adjustment to do. it took me lot more work than i planned to get it done to this level, but main shaft, swash and belt is in with 36 tooth pulley. had heck of time lining the idler up so that it would not slip the belt. with two screw style boom clamp, it is easy to have the idler bar not level, and that lead to one side of belt that wanted to slip off. did not realize it until I spooled it up. anyway, there is basically 355mm of space between the grip hole and the tail rotor tip. maybe 360 may work, but may be not. I have turn the head back to counter clockwise again, incase I want to try corona blade. anyway, good night.
Mar 12, 2005, 05:49 AM
Thanks for the new thread, Fred. This thread was getting a bit large.

Mar 12, 2005, 10:45 PM
Destroyer of G-10
askman's Avatar
I was up till 3am last night, and also spent large part of today. I will be out of town for 3 days, so I wanted to get it done and get a flight in. I recut most of the linkage. this swash is bit smaller, and I took extra care to get it smooth as possible. we don't have lot of ball bearing on this head, and we are looking at hi tech solution to the bearing issue, which will help immensely in smoothness and durability. I have specd the part fairly tight, and it took quite a bit of work to get it smooth. First of all, the heli is magnitutde better with real main shaft. I got it to fit fairly well, but 7mm portion could be about .5"-.7" shorter with overall length shorter by same amount. I got -10/10 pitch, but I am still at 125% 'ATV, so at max pitch my pitch response is bit low. (roll response is good though because it is 90 ccpm and there is two servo on it) I think 120ccpm will help with this issue, as well as possibly going with longer servo horn.

I had heck of time with my tail belt idler last night. (too late I guess) and I kept finding little interference that I had to take care of. that is why it was just easier to make new linkages. I have already did a design changes(in the CAD drawing that matt have) that will help, and I will implement that when I get back from my trip.

So, how does it fly? it is much better than before, I was always bit worried about flying it with jury rigged part as it was not consistant in control. it is consistant now, and I have good solid control. I have a bit of nagging vibration in the tail, which I need to track down. I need to make another tailcase and replace it. (when I get the bearings) and I seem to be drawing more current than usual, so I have some friction issue that I need to track down. wind was blowing fairly gusty today, so I did not really fly it for long. anyway, I need bit more work before it is as smooth as my eolo, but it is much closer. ( I would say we are about 80-85% there to where I would like it) the remaining issues would be 120ccpm, friction/bearing and getting same pitch range using 100%ATVl. I will make two replacement part when I get back, and track down the remaining issues. as well as doing more flight testing... see ya... be back in few days...
Mar 16, 2005, 12:10 AM
Destroyer of G-10
askman's Avatar
just got back late tuesday night. I've been doing lot of thinking about this on my trip, and I figured out couple things. I can drop the mast down to where it was before. (I have AXI belt drive, which have larger bore, and I can easily adapt this to 7mm shaft, and that will fix that) second, I figured out a better way of using the lever for the pitch control. My plan over next couple days, is to implement these changes, as well as figuring out the tail vibration.

also, I figured out a way to do 120CCPM with this crutch, but I will wait on that until I get thorough flight test finished with present setup. it will require me to move the swash block and one servo, but it may be worth doing.

anyway, I was bit down on myself for not dialing it in to my satisfaction before leaving for my trip, but I should be happy with progress I am making. it is so close that I can taste it, and that lead to my impatients...
Last edited by askman; Mar 16, 2005 at 12:30 AM.
Mar 16, 2005, 07:40 AM
Good call!

I am looking forward to it as well. I am glad you figured a way to move the shaft down. I am hopeful to get the disk as low as the Corona would normally be if at all possible. But, I did not want to screw it all up by making the shafts too short.

I am makign stead progress filling my orders. My daughter is really helping me out alot at this point. Also, I have a friend coming over to help out today. That is on top of a few streamlining steps I have taken to ease the production burden. All of these steps has allowed me to catch up quite a bit on my waiting orders. However, I do have two large retailer's orders to fill today. So, that will dominate the majority of my day today, rather than filling half of my pending individual orders.

Mar 17, 2005, 02:10 AM
Destroyer of G-10
askman's Avatar
got quite a bit of work done on it tonight. (so much easier when you have things planned out in advance)

I lower the setup by modding the belt drive to 7mm (I bored it out to .375, and made a delrin adapter, but may make one out of aluminum later on) this setup lower the head by half an inch. right now, my head is sitting about .75" higher than stock corona. very nice now. I had to shorten the push rods, and also worked on the tail a bit. tail is still problematic with the tail case I am using. Hey matt, can you set me up with craze tail case or at least couple of the 5mm flanged bearing?

I also decided to show off the heli with the corona blade. I think I am going to fly it next. it should fly as nice as my FP corona. (I got it dialed in now) no stiction and same type of range as my FP setup. My flight plan, is use flat pitch curve(about 4 degree) first like the FP setup, then 0 to 10 (possibly -2 to 10) pitch curve using 110 blade. (I think it is better blade for CP setup) then go back to 3D blade. this way, I can work out any control issues that I may have without worry about breaking blades. also prove that this will fly with 110/120 blade no problem. anyway, I am happy with progress I've made, and really happy that I finally got rid of most of the issues that I have except for the tail issue (bit of wierd drag there. may be I have a bad bearing).
Mar 17, 2005, 09:17 PM
Destroyer of G-10
askman's Avatar
success!!!!.. ALL RIGHT.... I put on the corona blade last night, and I did bunch of work late last night on setting up the pitch and throttle curve for this. On normal mode, I set it up as 0, 50, 100 throttle and pitch fixed at about 4 degrees(40, 40, 40, 40, 40) on idle up, I set it up with 0, 50,85, 85, 85 throttle with 65, 60, 60, 40, 20 pitch. I got home, and check everything out, including the tail to make sure that direction is correct and gyro is also correct. gyro was set to 50% gain on both mode. so I powered up, and got it up in the air. I put it back down to adjust the trim couple times, but it felt no different than my BT FP. (which is dang good btw) felt bit floating, but that is because i am so used to flying 110 blade setup. did some hovering and did some light circuits. tail has good authority with 3.6:1 and eolo tail blade , but I have bit of vibration out of tail. (I got some bearings and other parts ordered, which should showup by early next week, and I am thinking of moving the crazetail from my other bird) so, I land , swap out the battery pacc and flip the idle up 1 switch. this setup have lot of lift and power, and I got it off the ground at about half stick with bit of wag. (about 2 degree) I land and change my throttle curve a bit lower. (0, 50,75, 80, 80) and lower the gyro gain to 40%. I take off again, and try some vertical stuff, and I can tell the boggin at higher pitch, but it is a rocket up to that point. (6 degree pitch?) tail holds and response well. it just flies like my FP corona setup except having lot better vertical response like CP should. I have to admit that my FP corona do fly well, but this does fly just as well and give you that CP vertical response. Light was going, so I had to stop, and with Easter week coming up, my weekend is going to be fairly busy for next couple weeks, but I will try to get some flying pics and possibly short movie.(need to find a server though) I am so happy and psyched right now. this week has been heck with kids being sick during our trip out of town, and we were totally exhausted, but I am really feeling good right now.

I am going to do some power measurement later tonight and get some numbers. I will spend couple weeks with corona(possibly 110 blade), I will be going back to 335 trex blade fairly soon afterward.

oh yes, there is no comparison between this and old choppa cp. choppa cp only worked with lot of work and mod. this heli just works.

well, I flew with single pack, but I did the measurement with dual pack due to battery bogging out. I also changed my throttle curve to maximize performance. I was using -2 to about 8 degree positive pitch,(i am using two 2degree grip) and changed my pitch curve to 70 to 20 (-4 to 6 degree on the feather) with throttle set to 85, 85, 100. (max power) it will turn at -2 degree without problem and actually give small amount of down force (not too much though) power was 220 watt at -2, and 350watt at 8 degree. have heck of lot of pull at full 8 pitch. hover is about 130-150 watt. very smooth overall. pretty happy about that. (I took special care to make it smooth as possible) with trex 335, I could only get 250watt, so these have lot higher drag and lift due to its design. it may actually be good to use for AP use. (due to high lift with compact size) I do still need to try 360, 385 and 420 blade sometime. I like the fact that it is very flexible...
Last edited by askman; Mar 18, 2005 at 12:01 AM.
Mar 18, 2005, 07:35 AM

I am getting psyched too!

I had to delay the purchase of my new mill due to another emergency dental visit yesterday ($900). So, I may go with another standard stepper mill rather than the radical servo mill I was going to get, or I will save back up. Not too sure. I really need another CNC. Anyway, back to the CP. It sure sounds like we are onto something here?! Big thumbs up!

Mar 18, 2005, 09:33 AM
Destroyer of G-10
askman's Avatar
dental visit are real pain. both in the mouth and the pocket book.

I would go ahead with ordering the cnc ready mill first, then get yourself the servo kit later on or just get it with stepper. I am using surplus pacsci 130oz steppers(20bucks a piece when I got it) and still get 30" per min travel. ones that Taig comes with at 200oz motors, and they are also rated for 30 ips but higher torque. only thing you gain with servo system is the close loop encoder system and non cutting travel time as well as more power. interesting thing, is that stepper accuracy is as good as it is going to get. encoders actually have lower resolution than steppers.

I am really happy with the CP now. my goal was to get it to fly as well as BT FP setup with addition of Vertical CP control, at least with corona blade, I think I hit that goal. as soon as I get some pics and more flights in, I will move over to 3D blade. You know, one thing good about belt tail drive, is that it is very easy to change ratio or length of boom. it may be worth considering going with slightly longer boom/belt so that 385s will fit without mod in the final version. I may take off my eolo blade and put it on down the road.

this will be great beginner to intermediate heli. run it with corona blade in FP initially during high crash time learning curve, go to corona CP as you get better, and then go to 3D blade after that. very flexible. I think trex 335 blade are good for light flying, but if you want to do harder 3D, I am beginning to think 385s may be the way to go. we shall see.

You know, this heli just feels bit mellower on the stick and easier to fly(almost like having expo built in). it was bit of jalopy until I got it butter smooth though. now, it is totally tame. may be that is due to the mix ratio.
Mar 18, 2005, 10:14 AM
Registered User
Great stuff you guys! Matt, if you didn't have your kids biting off the CF parts, you wouldn't have those high dental bills! Still, $900 is cheaper than a mill and bits...

Keep it up Askman, looks fantastic.

Mar 18, 2005, 04:22 PM
The servo mill I am looking at has a resolution of .0000125"
The travel speed is 90 IPM with 1100 ounce/inch torque. So, it is far better than my current stepper CNC. If I go over 14 IPM while cutting, the resolution goes bye-bye and it begins skipping steps. I am also tired of constanly reindicating the head (zeroing the axis). A servo mill doesnot need to be rezeroed. Anyway, if I can afford it, I will go with the servo mill ($3500). But, if not, I will order another $2000 standard Taig CNC.

Mar 18, 2005, 05:02 PM
Destroyer of G-10
askman's Avatar
another option may be close loop stepper, but at that point, might as well go with servos. Higher torque is definitely nice when cutting fast, and close loop is nice to have in your case. as far as accuracy is concerend, I doubt taig mill can do anything physically better than .5mil accuracy anyway even with backlash taken into account, but that is plenty accurate for this application. it is a great mill for the money. price start to go up fast with servo because while the motor is simpler, you need hall effects sensors and dedicated controller board. (unlike stepper which uses printer port for direction and step signal)
Mar 18, 2005, 05:18 PM
Yes, tha is true. My issue is machining speed. I could always go with two more stepper equipped CNCs. That would be roughly similar price to the servo cnc setup I am looking at. What would be ideal is 4 of them setup in a row. That way, I could just walk from one CNC to the next refixturing panels. I am looking at roughly an hour to cut one Crooked or Stealth crutch. If I could get that to 3 crutches per hour, I would be a happy man.

Anyway, I also need a better production line setup. I will begin setting up a long production line along one wall in my shop this summer. Ideally, I would like each CNC setup for a couple specific tasks. Fixturing time is killing me as well as waiting for the CNC to finish cutting. I have been told by many people "Go get one GOOD CNC and stop messign around with the smaller mills". But, I one large Bridgeport will not cut any faster than a small mill. Cut speed is purely limited by cutter style and RPM. In fact, small mills have alot of advantages over larger mills.

Oh, I also need a spare mill to fall back on. I currently have only one CNC. If it goes down, B-Tech is shut down untill I get it up and running again.

Mar 18, 2005, 05:50 PM
Destroyer of G-10
askman's Avatar
too bad I don't live near. I used xylotex drivers, 24v power supplies and surplus stepper and Fry's 200 buck pc and saved quite a bit. we could easily setup two taig stepper cnc for 3000 bucks, if we supply the motion control. oh well. even with slower cutting speed, it is better for you to have gang of cncs. that will also give you fall back position.

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