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Sep 23, 2021, 11:04 PM
Just Plane Nutts
AirDOGGe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboparker
We're FAR from being past bushing motors in the 1s world. The Ultrix has 'em!

And I have never ever said that I hate 1s power. Never. I have said that I hate pager-motor power. They were never designed to carry any load whatsoever. They were designed for ONE purpose only - to spin a counterweight under zero load to vibrate a pager for a few seconds at a time every few hrs or so. That's it. I know this is a fact.

Regarding 1s power - I have simply pointed out the absolute facts of I^R loss, which is a HUGE thing in all electric power systems. Running half the voltage @ twice the current to get the same horsepower always results in 4x the resistive power loss - unless you add a significant amount of copper weight to reduce resistance & partially offset the I^R loss. But you can never actually get there. It's like filling the bathtub with the plug out. Simple Ohm's Law proves this to always be true. Running high voltage/low current is always more efficient. Less I^R loss & less weight. It's a win-win scenario. Hence, why all of the major US auto manufacturers switched from 6V to 12V nearly 70 yrs ago, why modern 18-wheelers run 24V starting systems, and why aircraft have been using 24V (or higher) electrical systems for nearly a century. Even plain ol' Super Cubs & small Cessnas have been running 24V for 70+ yrs. Why? Precisely because 24V is a lot more efficient than 12V.


And in the RC world - if low voltage/high current was so great - all of the giant-scale electric unlimited aerobatic guys would be running 1s packs @ 10,000 amps instead of 24s packs @ 416 amps. However, they're running 12s packs in series for a reason - to reduce I^R loss, increase efficiency, and reduce weight.

Joel





Giant scale planes run higher voltage for the same reason they run bigger recip engines.... They need more power, period. But who's talking about big-scale birds here? I see nobody. The discussion is micro craft.



Let's keep it within perspective. If I was building a wind and solar powered home system or building a full-size aircraft, fine. That's all good advice. Efficiencies are important with them.



But we are only playing with little toy airplanes here. THAT is the reality, and 3.7 volts works just fine for the class. That is a given. It's not like anyone is shooting for range or duration records here. Let it go and just have fun. Use 1S or 2S or 12S or whatever pleases your senses and we will do likewise.


Happy flying.


P.S>.....I have seen dry ball bearings fail in brushless motors. There is nothing wrong with bushings.

What's wrong is the loss of general public knowledge that you need to keep bearings lubricated properly, be they solid, balls or rollers. I can't tell you how many bikes I have serviced with dry, and often damaged ball bearings. Oil the puppies and it will indeed last many years ( DON'T USE WD-40! It's not a lube!).
Last edited by AirDOGGe; Sep 23, 2021 at 11:13 PM.
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Sep 23, 2021, 11:14 PM
Flying @ G/L is fun!
turboparker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by skytek
.... If this 1S batterycan power two small brushless motors (albeit crap ones) for 8 minutes of fast, sporty flying, surely it can power a larger, better single motor on other UMX planes.
That stuff doesn't scale linearly. If it was truly that easy - all of the UMX planes & even the park-flyers would be running 1s batts. There is no magic that will compensate for the high I^R losses & resulting low efficiency of running low voltage/high current vs running higher voltage/lower current. If there was - all of the commercial manufacturers of cordless power tools would be running low-voltage packs. But they're not. In fact, they've been running higher & higher voltage over the years. Ditto for electric cars & electric commercial vehicles such as forklifts.

Higher efficiency means a lower AUW for the same flight-time at the same average power-setting. And the resulting higher horsepower/lb also means less power is needed for a given airspeed or aerobatic maneuver. All of which means a significantly lighter, more maneuverable aircraft for a given level of performance & flight-time when you run higher voltage/lower current to develop the same horsepower at the output shaft.

Joel
Latest blog entry: Eflite 2.1m Carbon-Z Cub SS
Sep 23, 2021, 11:20 PM
Registered User
but the old 14" span beast 3d had 2s brushless motor, don't see why anyone would want 1s when they could have more efficient and ball bearing equipped 2s motors. Yeah, simple to charge 1s batteries, big deal. The only people that would have problems charging 2s batteries probably shouldn't be flying rc airplanes. Get real, if you are into RC you want at least a few dual port (or one quad port) 1-6s balance multichemistry chargers. Or you could get some of the dual port mini chargers that go up to 4s.

You could get some super cheap chargers, but if you are going to fly electric the first thing you should do is invest in a half decent dual port (1-4s) charger at least.

Actually tho, some of the old E-flite 2s brushless helicopter motors don't have ball bearings, at least the Mcpxbl2 motors don't look like they have them. I DON'T want any of those old garbage motors. Its an "inrunner" brushless motor. They are crap for helis and planes because they don't have room (or as much) for ball bearings and they don't have as good cooling as larger diameter "outrunners". The only place you'd want an in runner is for micro ducted fans!
Last edited by Mortimerex; Sep 23, 2021 at 11:34 PM.
Sep 23, 2021, 11:32 PM
Flying @ G/L is fun!
turboparker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AirDOGGe
Giant scale planes run higher voltage for the same reason they run bigger recip engines.... They need more power, period. But who's talking about big-scale birds here? I see nobody. The discussion is micro craft.

Let's keep it within perspective. If I was building a wind and solar powered home system or building a full-size aircraft, fine. That's all good advice. Efficiencies are important with them.

But we are only playing with little toy airplanes here. THAT is the reality, and 3.7 volts works just fine for the class. That is a given. It's not like anyone is shooting for range or duration records here. Let it go and just have fun. Use 1S or 2S or 12S or whatever pleases your senses and we will do likewise.

Happy flying.

P.S>.....I have seen dry ball bearings fail in brushless motors. There is nothing wrong with bushings.

What's wrong is the loss of general public knowledge that you need to keep bearings lubricated properly, be they solid, balls or rollers. I can't tell you how many bikes I have serviced with dry, and often damaged ball bearings. Oil the puppies and it will indeed last many years ( DON'T USE WD-40! It's not a lube!).
Efficiency is just as important at UMX scale if you want to get the UMX Beast 3D's aerobatic performance, 3:1 thrust-to-weight, and to-die-for WCL - or the slow-flying capability of the UMX CC & Timber. In fact, the math shows that efficiency is even more important as the scale goes down - due to Reynolds numbers & other things.

Regarding lubing bushings - I have zero desire to go back to the 1940s, when you had to oil your electric drill, fan, and sowing-machine motors. Moved past that many decades ago. The only reason I fly electric RC planes is for the convenience. If I have to go back to periodically lubing stuff, I'd MUCH rather simply fly gassers that last for decades & still put out exactly the same power - without dumping craploads of money into regularly replacing LiPos that at the absolute very best, only last for a few hundred cycles before they start to get saggy due to high IR.

Besides - I already have 15+ 2s bl UMX planes with many hrs on 'em, and in over a decade I've never seen a 2s bl UMX motor fail or lose power. Plus, many of 'em can handle 3s without mods. I see zero downsides, here! (Of course, I'm not talking about "teach yourself to fly without a sim" beginner planes. I want to see more high-performance & true-scale UMX planes with details such as flaps & slats if the full-scale has 'em.)

Joel
Latest blog entry: Eflite 2.1m Carbon-Z Cub SS
Sep 23, 2021, 11:33 PM
Just Plane Nutts
AirDOGGe's Avatar
To each their own. I don't consider any machine garbage just because it uses solid bearings.

Ball bearings are for people too lazy to maintain their stuff properly. Don't forget to keep oil in your car. Those antique machines still use bushings and have for over 100 years.

Frankly, modern power tools don't last nearly as long as the old ones did. Probably dried out bearings.

Manufacturers are fine with that because they want to you buy another. It's a different world today. Things back then were made to last, and they did for people who maintained them properly.
Last edited by AirDOGGe; Sep 23, 2021 at 11:40 PM.
Sep 23, 2021, 11:45 PM
Flying @ G/L is fun!
turboparker's Avatar
Ball-bearings & modern technology are for those who aren't lazy and actually want to advance, rather than be mentally lazy & stay stuck in the stone-age. I have no desire to return to the days of mechanical drum brakes in cars, or the crappy, low HP per cube/low HP per lb engines that got horrible gas-mileage per HP & were shot in less than 100,000 miles. I have absolutely ZERO desire to return to the old days before space travel revolutionized ALL electronics. Grew up back then, but there's no way in hell that I'd want to live those bad old days over again.

Joel
Latest blog entry: Eflite 2.1m Carbon-Z Cub SS
Sep 24, 2021, 12:50 AM
Just Plane Nutts
AirDOGGe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
I have zero desire to go back to the 1940s, when you had to oil your electric drill, fan, and sowing-machine motors



Quote:
Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
Ball-bearings & modern technology ...





Quote:
Although bearings had been developed since ancient times, the first modern recorded patent on ball bearings was awarded to Philip Vaughan, a Welsh inventor and ironmaster who created the first design for a ball bearing in Carmarthen in 1794. His was the first modern ball-bearing design, with the ball running along a groove in the axle assembly.



Nothing modern about it. Ball bearings are nearly as old as America.



The shafts in these plane motors suffer very little side load, relatively speaking, so bushings are fine. I designed and built machines in tool & die shops for the microchip industry for 16 years before it packed up and went overseas, so I understand bearings myself quite well, thank you. Some of my builds used bronze Oilite bushings and some roller bearings. All depended on the app and the need.



No biggie. Fly what you wish. Just keep those ball bearings lubed, 'cause dry ball bearings can fail too. It's the 1940's thing to do.
Latest blog entry: My You-Tube channel
Sep 24, 2021, 01:10 AM
Ninja
ooOoo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboparker
Ball-bearings & modern technology are for those who aren't lazy and actually want to advance, rather than be mentally lazy & stay stuck in the stone-age. I have no desire to return to the days of mechanical drum brakes in cars, or the crappy, low HP per cube/low HP per lb engines that got horrible gas-mileage per HP & were shot in less than 100,000 miles. I have absolutely ZERO desire to return to the old days before space travel revolutionized ALL electronics. Grew up back then, but there's no way in hell that I'd want to live those bad old days over again.

Joel
Too bad HH doesn’t think like you, instead they still employ antiquated thinking in the products they release, including bushed motors when far superior options have existed for quite some time.

Look how long it to them to get telemetry in a radio. They aren’t always “cutting edge” when it comes to tech. I will hand it to them for AS3X and SAFE, they sure nailed that.
Sep 24, 2021, 05:10 AM
Registered User
Yes, HH definitely still employs antiquated thinking in products like brushless motors with "bushing" bearings when the entire rest of the world uses ball bearings.

But also -on the other hand- when it comes to AS3x its hard to find anything comparable for the price.

I totally agree.
Sep 24, 2021, 07:29 AM
Registered User
Skytek's Avatar
Dale, who told you this secret Horizon plan? Or are you just guessing?
Sep 24, 2021, 07:49 AM
Registered User
Skytek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboparker
That stuff doesn't scale linearly. If it was truly that easy - all of the UMX planes & even the park-flyers would be running 1s batts.

Joel
I don't think we can always look at history and use that as evidence for what can't be done in future. I don't agree that "If 1S was easy, all the UMX brushless planes and park flyers would be 1S". Just because it is possible to make a well flying 1S micro does not at all mean that all micros and even all park flyers would have 1S systems. That is quite a stretch in logic.

Most of the micro planes are old now. Modern motors are smaller and more powerful, in large part thanks to the popularity and constant improvement of 1S micro quads. What's possible with a 3.7v system today wasn't being done when the UMX Beast was designed, The flight controllers are getting smaller and more intelligent. The Ultrix UMX with upgraded motors packs a serious punch. Unlimited vertical, lots of speed, wild roll rates.

Some people look at ideas like 1S and EPP in micros with the tint of "It hasn't been done in the past therefore it can't be done. "

A 1S system has advantages, as I mentioned before. It obviously has disadvantages too.

Higher voltage surely does give better performance but there's no question as to whether or not good 1S micros are possible. They are already here.
Last edited by Skytek; Sep 24, 2021 at 08:10 AM.
Sep 24, 2021, 08:29 AM
Registered User
Skytek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortimerex
Yeah, simple to charge 1s batteries, big deal. The only people that would have problems charging 2s batteries probably shouldn't be flying rc airplanes. Get real
Believe me, I'm keeping real. As someone new to RC planes such as yourself, surely you can understand why some people who are brand new to RC as a whole appreciate simplicity. And some people like the low cost and easier availability of 1S batteries. The Ultrix has been phenomenally successful. With its SAFE, its simple design and its cheap batteries it has captured relatively inexperienced pilots and reeled them in as customers.

When you get your Ultrix and you get better at flying RC planes and see how well it can perform, despite its 1S battery, maybe you'll understand why some people are starting to think that 1S can be adequate in certain applications like this. This is one example of a plane that flies amazingly well without the need for higher voltage. Power, long flight times and agility are already excellent. The motors suck for longevity because Horizon cheaped out, but they can be swapped for ball bearing alternatives that provide even more power.
Sep 24, 2021, 08:54 AM
Ninja
ooOoo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
Ball-bearings & modern technology are for those who aren't lazy and actually want to advance, rather than be mentally lazy & stay stuck in the stone-age. I have no desire to return to the days of mechanical drum brakes in cars, or the crappy, low HP per cube/low HP per lb engines that got horrible gas-mileage per HP & were shot in less than 100,000 miles. I have absolutely ZERO desire to return to the old days before space travel revolutionized ALL electronics. Grew up back then, but there's no way in hell that I'd want to live those bad old days over again.

Joel
Joel, you bring up some wonderful points, and I have always and always will agree with them

Quick story - one group of people that have always amused me is the guys who cling to their old huge-cube engines that crank out monster power. That’s fine, but they will also criticize and ridicule smaller import engines for making far less power. So far everything is true, except for that the guy with the import engine is making way more power per cubic inch than the big-cube engine due to using technological advancements ranging from computer tuning to materials used to airflow to etc and I’m sure you get the point. When you need to hurl a 5,000 pound all-steel door slammer down the strip as fast as possible or hook up to a 40’ gooseneck trailer with a backhoe on it, you are going to need some displacement. This describes the huge 12s system planes when something smaller just isn’t going to work. The little Honda Civic needs nowhere near that much going on to get done what it needs to do. It’s just fine with a little engine that makes a lot of power on less cubes, just as newer 1s systems are far more advanced than they previously were and are certainly capable of providing enjoyable flight of a small plane.
Sep 24, 2021, 09:00 AM
Registered User
alexbn921's Avatar
The ultrix could of come with 7k 1102 ballbearing motors running 2s and it would have been a better plane for almost no additional cost.

Is it a great plane as is, yes. Would it have been better, yes.

For anything over 200-300mah you should switch to 2s.

As much as I love my 1s brushed champ, p51 and radian, I will never buy a bushed motor plane again.
Sep 24, 2021, 09:39 AM
Registered User
WRXpilot's Avatar
I find all this row a little funny. There are those who will complain about any/every thing HH does.

-Forum: "Please stop making 1S pager motor 'UMX' planes"

-HH: Okay, here's a new entry-level 1S aerobatic plane w/ dual BL motors!

-Forum: "NO!!! Not like that!!"

As someone else said - they're toy planes, built to a price point. From the American company that actually spent the money to do the development to bring things like 2.4GHz SS and gyro stabilization to the airplane space.

Yeah, you can NOW go buy a 'Eachine' ultra-micro with similar tech - but only because they ripped off what HH did first.

I have never seen a factory plane that couldn't be hopped-up, upgraded, made to fly on higher power w/ bigger batteries and motor(s). And all the joy in the world to those who's passion in this hobby is doing that. But if it flies well OOtB, that doesn't make it a bad plane just because it doesn't carry the equipment you prefer.

Heck, I've paid good money for kits that had no chance in @#&! of building up into decent flyers once you get them on the building board and see what's up. More than once. Can't say that's ever happened to me w/ Horizon though.

We are a market niche. The planes this forum cries out for over and over again have repeatedly been market failures for HH, and the ones we disparage are sales leaders, year over year. No offense intended, it just seems to be the way things are...
Last edited by WRXpilot; Sep 24, 2021 at 09:59 AM.


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