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Oct 22, 2019, 06:17 PM
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abieex's Avatar
I truly believe that some laws are passed to simply use as a "bigger bat" to be brought out when enforcement deems an act to be particularly offensive. Your correct Ryan, we do advertise our location!
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Oct 22, 2019, 06:22 PM
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abieex's Avatar
The website at the AMA seems overloaded!
Oct 22, 2019, 06:49 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by abieex
I just don't see how any of this is enforceable. Maybe I'm old and stupid but I don't think the government is going to pay to create the toy plane police. I've not heard of one cancelled contest out of this whole thing.
They won't have to enforce it. The following is pure speculation on my part but let's suppose they DID name for instance, the AMA as a CBO and everyone had to register their planes with FAA (which they already do) and fly under the rules of a CBO, the AMA. Every AMA flying site could simply be under the FAA directive that , "Flying sites must be registered with the FAA for prior approval. It is the responsibility of the CBO to enforce all FAA rules and regulations or face possible fines and/or possible closure of flying site."

Voila' just like that Mr. Zealous Rule Enforcer AMA club member will revoke your membership after X number of infractions.

IIRC, there were "safety rules" I had to agree to to get my FAA registration numbers. They can put into place any rules they wish, including requiring flying RC models ONLY on an FAA approved and established flying field under the guardianship of a named CBO. And just like that, they don't have to do a darn thing to enforce.

Now the AMA , along with the LSF said prior to this year's soaring Nats that neither one felt it was their responsibility to enforce FAA regulations, that was up to the individual pilot. They may take that stance going forward insofar as contests are concerned. If so, all the FAA has to do is say, "We will fine YOU for sponsoring or sanctioning any contest that violates airspace regulations."


The guy out in the farmer's field, like me, may fly happily from now on without any further recognition of any airspace limitations & I doubt seriously FAA cares one whit about that, and unless they get a complaint or local LE gets a complaint, they likely will never know. Until somewhere down the road they require some type of transponder.
Oct 22, 2019, 06:52 PM
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Oct 22, 2019, 07:23 PM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashbound
The following is pure speculation on my part but let's suppose they DID name for instance, the AMA as a CBO and everyone had to register their planes with FAA (which they already do) and fly under the rules of a CBO, the AMA. Every AMA flying site could simply be under the FAA directive that , "Flying sites must be registered with the FAA for prior approval. It is the responsibility of the CBO to enforce all FAA rules and regulations or face possible fines and/or possible closure of flying site."
You might be right but a few counter points:

1) there are all kinds of people organizing all kinds of illegal activities. That makes me think sailplane contests will continue to exist on at least some level.

2) I donít remember the AMA really trying to enforce any other government regulations. There used to be a number of FCC regulations I saw not enforced ( rubber duckies, channel numbers on radios).

3) the AMA has repeatedly stated they are not the police. This registration thing has been around for a few years and the AMA isnít trying to enforce it

4) we already kind of violate the AMA safety code (flight line) and the AMA continues to support our existence



Quote:
Voila' just like that Mr. Zealous Rule Enforcer AMA club member will revoke your membership after X number of infractions.
That part has already happened and I donít doubt will continue to happen.

In the mid 1990s when I was learning to fly (some of you would say I never did learn) I used to hang out at a traditional power plane club. I ended up meeting s good friend there that flew pattern and also some gliders. Another guy there with a real fun attitude was convinced it was illegal to fly over 400 feet. He had a kind of hatred for gliders because he felt they were unsafe given how high we liked to fly them.

Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons
Oct 23, 2019, 06:55 AM
Sonoran Laser Art
My frustration and fight for unpowered to be exempt was purely selfish. I wasn't trying to leave people out and am sorry if I took frustration out on Ryan. Our field is in controlled space with a 200 ft cap. Can't find another field either right now.

I'd be thrilled with 400 ft in G. So if you have any fixes for that I'm up for listening. There are numerous power clubs around with nice facilities in G operating as they did before.
Oct 23, 2019, 07:31 AM
Dark Side of the Red Merle
Curtis Suter's Avatar
Enforcement like this:
The city of Chesapeake, Virginia, is attempting to keep the "trick" part of trick-or-treating to a minimum by threatening jail time for Halloween troublemakers over 12 years old. However, the city says it won't be "actively seeking out violations."

The city's ordinance code states if anyone over 12 years of age participates in "trick or treat" or any similar activity, "he or she shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine of not less than $25.00 nor more than $100.00 or by confinement in jail for not more than six months or both."

Who/Why are rules like this even made? Yikes!
Curtis
Oct 23, 2019, 07:52 AM
Registered User
320pilot's Avatar
National Public Radio program today about "Drone Delivery is One Step Closer to Reality"
link here,
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/18/77089...ser-to-reality

excerpt,

Quote:
"UPS Flight Forward, has won federal approval to expand its drone delivery operations, allowing the company to use multiple aircraft in multiple locations to make revenue-generating deliveries over longer distances......."What we are doing is we are opening up a third dimension that wasn't there," says Bala Ganesh, vice president of the advanced technology group at UPS. "We were thinking in 2D and now we're starting to think in the third dimension. And no pun intended, the sky's the limit in what we can build out going forward with this third dimension."
later he said,
Quote:
Ganesh says GPS and other technologies allow for these unmanned drones to fly to precise locations, and collision-avoidance technology will help prevent the drones from crashing into obstacles such as trees, power lines, buildings or even other drones.

"We are moving forward into a future that does not exist today, so it's an amazing, amazing thing," Ganesh says.
A third dimension, that wasn't there??? Sailplane fliers, like myself were there, but now the FAA has handed this Airspace over to delivery companies..

and this,
Quote:
The new FAA "part 135" certification awarded to UPS will eventually allow for drone deliveries going beyond the operator's line of sight, flying the drones at night and over populated areas.
Sheesh. A Part 135 certificate? And we can't even get waivers to fly sailplanes.. My Rant for the day
Last edited by 320pilot; Oct 23, 2019 at 07:59 AM.
Oct 23, 2019, 08:12 AM
Registered User
abieex's Avatar
Let them do as they wish. All it will take is one injured person or pet, damage to property or a fire caused by a lipo. The lawsuits will be thick as fleas. Once again, implementing this on any real scale will take years and I'm not sure the public will accept it. They will fear for their children and pets.
Oct 23, 2019, 08:22 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudSniffer
I wasn't trying to leave people out and am sorry if I took frustration out on Ryan.

I appreciate that, Corky, and appreciate that you apologized to me by name in a public forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudSniffer
I Our field is in controlled space with a 200 ft cap. Can't find another field either right now.

I'd be thrilled with 400 ft in G. So if you have any fixes for that I'm up for listening. There are numerous power clubs around with nice facilities in G operating as they did before.
This is what I personally would do. Obviously you and everyone else here are adults and are free to do whatever you wish.

From a continuing to enjoy the hobby perspective not knowing all the details of your field I personally would be a bit hesitant to fly super high at a field in controlled airspace where I got a LOA from the FAA stating 200 feet. I would personally switch over to mostly flying DLGs at that field. You mentioned there are numerous power clubs in G I would investigate those to find out how crowded they are, how open they would be to the types of gliders I fly, and try to get a beat on the vibe of the leadership/membership to flying in thermals the way we like to fly in thermals. My guess is that one of them would be receptive to at least electric gliders so I would join one of those clubs and mix up my DLG flying at the place you fly now with some electric sailplane flying at a power club in G.

Then I would continue to press Congress. As a reminder again to everyone https://www.modelaircraft.org/higher-flight is an easy way to continue to do that. I would continue my communication with the FAA and maybe even try to get some inroads into the leadership of the ATO (maybe we should all be doing that). We have went back and forth on the law and what it means a zillion times in this thread and others but my read of the law is there isn't any reason why the FAA can't legally work out some system with clubs in controlled airspace to keep flying on at least some level how they always have. They are just choosing not to. If your club has flown sailplanes safely at that field for a long time and had a prior LOA with the airport then I would also start reaching out to local media.

Sort of unrelated, I think you guys probably don't hate me enough already so I am going to relay another story. I don't know if any of you guys have ever worked as telemarketers. I did briefly. I was pretty terrible at it but there was a guy I was friends with that was good at it. He had a kind of weird (to me anyway) attitude that made him not hate doing it where he had a mindset that he had to get to 20 "angry NOs" before he got a "yes". I think we need to have that attitude with this fight. We need to be a high volume 3 point shooting basketball team. We need to keep pressing every button and keep coming up with new avenues to try.


Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons
Oct 23, 2019, 08:28 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by abieex
Let them do as they wish. All it will take is one injured person or pet, damage to property or a fire caused by a lipo. The lawsuits will be thick as fleas. Once again, implementing this on any real scale will take years and I'm not sure the public will accept it. They will fear for their children and pets.
It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. The world will continue to change as it always has. People love their conveniences even if it annoys others I don't know if any of you guys ever go to cities but most cities these days are now littered with annoying electric scooters everywhere.

Ryan
Latest blog entry: Supergee wing mount pylons
Oct 23, 2019, 08:41 AM
That thing almost hit me
Tahoed's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwoebke
It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. The world will continue to change as it always has. People love their conveniences even if it annoys others I don't know if any of you guys ever go to cities but most cities these days are now littered with annoying electric scooters everywhere.

Ryan
Our town is littered with the things in the summer. Nobody follows the rules when riding them either.
Oct 23, 2019, 09:04 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudSniffer
My frustration and fight for unpowered to be exempt was purely selfish. I wasn't trying to leave people out and am sorry if I took frustration out on Ryan. Our field is in controlled space with a 200 ft cap. Can't find another field either right now.

I'd be thrilled with 400 ft in G. So if you have any fixes for that I'm up for listening. There are numerous power clubs around with nice facilities in G operating as they did before.
To clarify lest they be any doubt, I personally do not in any way fault any desire to seek that exemption for non-powered gliders. In fact I applaud your efforts and further, as a business owner, I'm very acutely aware of what you personally have to loose above and beyond your love of soaring and contest participation. Admittedly I didn't believe it was realistic and was basically surprised by the initial response you got, but figured just what happened, someone in a cubicle looked at the document you linked to and agreed, "non powered gliders" are exempt. I believe anything radio controlled that flies is a UAS, key letter being the S=system. Once it's hooked to a wireless uplink (downlink?) it becomes a UA System. But heck, I would welcome any exception at this point.
What I took issue with was one in particular blaming all this on electric launch gliders, and including the insinuation that someone in the electric world intentionally derailed some "concession" that was made by the FAA on behalf of unpowered gliders, which wasn't the case. And additionally has now publicly called them "potential weapons". Geez... (Your cue Ryan) We need to remember WE are not the ones who caused this and soaring pilots aren't the only ones suffering here. I know YOU don't think that way, heck, you fly E-gliders and with the exception of your 1.5m, you produce and sell an E-version of every kit you produce.
But I would not want YOU to think that I in any way, thought of you being selfish or doing anything other than going to bat for our hobby, and that with honorable intentions.

What about the sod farm you had lined up for the (cancelled) contest? Is there some more rural area, sod farm, pastureland, BLM or something out there where you can form up a club in Class G?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abieex
Let them do as they wish. All it will take is one injured person or pet, damage to property or a fire caused by a lipo. The lawsuits will be thick as fleas. Once again, implementing this on any real scale will take years and I'm not sure the public will accept it. They will fear for their children and pets.
I don't know if the insurance with AMA is in house or they use some underwriter. But that is another avenue of enforcement. You play by the rules or you lose. A person would be a bit foolish to fly in this day without some type of liability insurance and the AMA is the only reasonable avenue as far as I know. Let the insurance companies be put on notice and who knows where that goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwoebke
We have went back and forth on the law and what it means a zillion times in this thread and others but my read of the law is there isn't any reason why the FAA can't legally work out some system with clubs in controlled airspace to keep flying on at least some level how they always have. They are just choosing not to.


Ryan
And particularly uncontrolled airspace. This is a point that needs to be stressed, questioned and again asked, 'Why? What safety issue is being addressed or corrected here?"
Oct 23, 2019, 09:05 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Suter
Enforcement like this:
The city of Chesapeake, Virginia, is attempting to keep the "trick" part of trick-or-treating to a minimum by threatening jail time for Halloween troublemakers over 12 years old. However, the city says it won't be "actively seeking out violations."

The city's ordinance code states if anyone over 12 years of age participates in "trick or treat" or any similar activity, "he or she shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine of not less than $25.00 nor more than $100.00 or by confinement in jail for not more than six months or both."

Who/Why are rules like this even made? Yikes!
Curtis
The rules are made to counter a specific problem that occurred... Kids out of elementary school hanging out with each other on Halloween, and causing trouble for others.

Just like the rules the FAA made in response to drones flying unresponsibly.
Oct 23, 2019, 09:18 AM
That thing almost hit me
Tahoed's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp
The rules are made to counter a specific problem that occurred... Kids out of elementary school hanging out with each other on Halloween, and causing trouble for others.

Just like the rules the FAA made in response to drones flying unresponsibly.
I don't think the present legislation had anything to do with irresponsible drone flyers. It's all about the Benjamins.....


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