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Sep 16, 2019, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exf3bguy
So you are comparing training at clubs for free by volunteers and training done by paid professionals? I would think that if you are willing to spend $1,200 for training, you are also going to take the instructor seriously.
I've had many beginners who had been trying to learn for years for "free" instruction in their clubs. They told me they would go to his club's one day a week training session. Some days, it would be too windy. The next week, it was raining. The week after, 6 beginners and one instructor. The week after, he finally got to fly, but only for 6 minutes and had to go to the end of the line. So on and so on. I heard this from most of those who came to me for instruction. They were so desperate, several had signed up for The 1st US RC Flight School, but were put on the waiting list. They so wanted to finally learn they were willing to spend almost any amount of money to finally have fun like all of the old hands in their club.

Like I said, this wasn't an isolated incident, it happened to most of those I trained. I had a hobby shop for 10 years and heard many horror stories from tons of customers. Unless you had contact with as many people other than the clubs you belonged to, you wouldn't know. There are usually two versions, that of the veteran flier and that of the beginner, which was always out of ear shot of the veteran flier/ instructor for fear of retribution.
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Sep 16, 2019, 06:56 PM
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exf3bguy's Avatar
Well Steve most of what I see over in the science forum are guys that think our models should fly like full scale airplanes and guys like me who expect better performance from their models then what that philosophy would provide.

I'm sure that when I make the claim that my airplanes will hold pitch trim at any given flight speed the educated guys just shake their head. It's the same everywhere here on RCG, guys don't know what they don't know and are too closed off to consider others point of view.
Sep 16, 2019, 07:23 PM
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exf3bguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fliers1
I've had many beginners who had been trying to learn for years for "free" instruction in their clubs. They told me they would go to his club's one day a week training session. Some days, it would be too windy. The next week, it was raining. The week after, 6 beginners and one instructor. The week after, he finally got to fly, but only for 6 minutes and had to go to the end of the line. So on and so on. I heard this from most of those who came to me for instruction. They were so desperate, several had signed up for The 1st US RC Flight School, but were put on the waiting list. They so wanted to finally learn they were willing to spend almost any amount of money to finally have fun like all of the old hands in their club.

Like I said, this wasn't an isolated incident, it happened to most of those I trained. I had a hobby shop for 10 years and heard many horror stories from tons of customers. Unless you had contact with as many people other than the clubs you belonged to, you wouldn't know. There are usually two versions, that of the veteran flier and that of the beginner, which was always out of ear shot of the veteran flier/ instructor for fear of retribution.

Your experience is certainly different than mine. From 1982 to 1990 I worked at the largest hobby shop in Northern California. I sent many new guys to the local club and can't remember a single complaint about not getting stick time with the instructor. You have to keep in mind that it's human nature to tell people what they want to hear, especially when that person is steering the conversation. These days I would put together a program of about an hour of ground school followed by a couple hours of simulator time. After that we head to the field.
Sep 16, 2019, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeronaut999
The FAA test won't have anything about aerodynamics or the physics of flight or how an airplane maneuvers. Remember, it will be a one-size-fits-all test for airplane flyers, heli flyers, droners, and whatever else.

As far as "sitting through training" goes, I'm sure that will be offered on-line, for free or for pay, whichever way you prefer to go. I don't see much overlap between someone wanting to learn enough about the airspace system to pass the test, and wanting to learn more about how an airplane flies.

Besides, lots of modellers fly very well without knowing much about how an airplane flies. Just look at some of the "discussions"/ debates that have gone on and on for a gazillion posts in the "Modelling Science" section of this forum for proof of that. You'll see lots of very proficient fliers expounding ideas that just don't quite hold water. (You may have to scroll back a ways-- it's been quite there lately-- I'm talking about discussions that have gone on and on for many hundreds of posts.)



Starting with four hours of classroom instruction would sure be a turnoff to me. You ought to be able to fit the important stuff into a lot less time than that. Why not write it up on a website and have the students read through it before coming to a Q-and-A answer session?
Iím certain you are correct in that there will not be any questions of that sort. Iím talking about changing the mindset to one where people actually want to know something about what they are doing, not just pushing the sticks around and hoping for the desired outcome.

RStrowe
Sep 16, 2019, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fliers1
Dave Scott also gets his info from his customers who felt it necessary to travel hundreds of miles and spend $1200 to finally learn how to fly.
Wow, that sounds completly insane, especially in these days of SAFE mode, etc.

All I needed, long before SAFE, was someone to help teach me to fly my Gentle Lady glider off a high start. No buddy box-- just hand the transmitter over. Obviously, he flew all the launches the first few sessions.

After that, it was all self- teaching, along with all the excitement of discovery that comes along with that. A crashworthy Zagi-like glider flown on the slope played a key role in the exploration of all sorts of aerobatics. A HobbyZone Cub LP taught me power techniques and tailwheel techniques, and later, with a wing modified by adding ailerons, taught me to get my left thumb working more actively for full use of 3-axis controls, including good crosswind takeoff and landing techniques.

Sure, I'd benefit from a few more pointers to become a competition-level aerobatic pilot or something like that. But it's a lot more fun doing it mainly the DIY way. Key tip for those wanting to go this route-- do NOT start with a balsa 3-axis trainer with a gas engine.

Your mileage may vary. Want to dive in with a traditional balsa 3- axis plane and lots of instructor assistance? Fine, more power to you. I suspect your path to unassisted ("solo") flight will be faster if you make some use of SAFE etc. Don't know for sure as I've never used it myself, or personally instructed a complete novice for more than just one or two sessions.

These days, I'd probably recommend a Radian as one way to start.

Steve
Last edited by aeronaut999; Sep 16, 2019 at 09:05 PM.
Sep 16, 2019, 09:39 PM
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exf3bguy's Avatar
A Radian is not a bad idea, Back in the day we used to sell a ton of Gentle Lady's if it were somone who wasn't interested in joining a club. A that time service really ment something. When we sold something to a beginner ( usually a Gentle Lady or an Eaglet ) we would offer to do a pre flight before the maiden flight and test run the engine. If it were a helicopter I would offer to do the initial set up, engine run and test flight. I did Helicopter flight instruction for $20 per hour.
Sep 16, 2019, 11:43 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeronaut999
Wow, that sounds completly insane, especially in these days of SAFE mode, etc.

All I needed, long before SAFE, was someone to help teach me to fly my Gentle Lady glider off a high start. No buddy box-- just hand the transmitter over. Obviously, he flew all the launches the first few sessions.

After that, it was all self- teaching, along with all the excitement of discovery that comes along with that. A crashworthy Zagi-like glider flown on the slope played a key role in the exploration of all sorts of aerobatics. A HobbyZone Cub LP taught me power techniques and tailwheel techniques, and later, with a wing modified by adding ailerons, taught me to get my left thumb working more actively for full use of 3-axis controls, including good crosswind takeoff and landing techniques.

Sure, I'd benefit from a few more pointers to become a competition-level aerobatic pilot or something like that. But it's a lot more fun doing it mainly the DIY way. Key tip for those wanting to go this route-- do NOT start with a balsa 3-axis trainer with a gas engine.

Your mileage may vary. Want to dive in with a traditional balsa 3- axis plane and lots of instructor assistance? Fine, more power to you. I suspect your path to unassisted ("solo") flight will be faster if you make some use of SAFE etc. Don't know for sure as I've never used it myself, or personally instructed a complete novice for more than just one or two sessions.

These days, I'd probably recommend a Radian as one way to start.

Steve
Sorta did the same thing, except the first was an Ace High single channel pulse system, followed by several 2-meter Drifter II’s. Then a Sig Colt with a retasked Fox .15 control line engine. Got really good at dead stick landings. But all without even a buddy box or SAFE. And really good, involved instructors.

The point is I might have been successful on my own. But even a little help never hurt.

RStrowe
Sep 17, 2019, 06:27 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suko
Put the burden of proof on the pilot. Requires them to come with documentation proving they have coverage from their homeowners insurance. And if the document is a forgery, but I don't know what to say. It's really no different from forging and AMA membership card and saying your current even if you have an expired membership.

Most clubs don't put too much scrutiny on existing numbers. It would be very easy to let your AMA expire and then be uninsured while continuing to fly at a club. I don't see how this is any different from letting your homeowners insurance laps, except for that is way riskier for the average person do not carry homeowners insurance compared to letting an AMA membership expire.

But by all means, apparently and I'm uneducated and incapable of cognitive analysis. So, of course my opinion is obviously wrong and worthless because it doesn't fit in line with your preconceived notions on this topic.

P. S. You do realize the new AMA memberships Renew at different times of the year, right? Reading your post, you must be one of those older AMA members who thinks it always renews on the 1st of every year. It doesn't. My current membership renewal is in February. My buddies were news in October. So, a club technically needs to keep on top of when each member has their renewal if they want to make sure they are still current and insured.
But it is still ONE place to check. How do you not get that?
And put the burden of proof on the individual member? AMA card,duh.
Why ,in the history of model aviation, isnít it being done your way?
Ask Franklin and abel why, after their many years of
AMA bashing, havenít they or SOMEONE come up with something better.
Sep 17, 2019, 06:31 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by abel pranger
Everybody should pay AMA because nobody has personal responsibility. None of my neighbors has checked my HO policy to confirm coverage is effect and meets their standards. I should take that issue to the HOA. Thanks for the prompt.
Buy some property, and let people you donít know come out and recreate.
You will change your tune.
Not everywhere has hold harmless legislation to protect.
Sep 17, 2019, 06:38 AM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by abel pranger
Everybody should pay AMA because nobody has personal responsibility. None of my neighbors has checked my HO policy to confirm coverage is effect and meets their standards. I should take that issue to the HOA. Thanks for the prompt.
And while Iím at it,
what an utterly stupid thing to say for someone who has been here bashing
all the ďdroners ď for their lack of personal responsibility .
Sep 17, 2019, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exf3bguy
Your experience is certainly different than mine. From 1982 to 1990 I worked at the largest hobby shop in Northern California. I sent many new guys to the local club and can't remember a single complaint about not getting stick time with the instructor. You have to keep in mind that it's human nature to tell people what they want to hear, especially when that person is steering the conversation. These days I would put together a program of about an hour of ground school followed by a couple hours of simulator time. After that we head to the field.
I hear several large hobby shops in California (Hobby People) have gone out of business. I belonged to 6 different clubs over the years and I too, never heard a complaint from beginners. What do you think would happen if a beginner did complain about the training service in any club? Nothing good for the beginner I bet.

What I've always done is offer anyone a free 20 minute training/promotional flight one of my LT-40s. If they say they can't afford to buy, it doesn't make any difference, they will still get the 20 minute or so stick time. I haven't lost a trainer yet. My "ground school" consist of a 5 minute explanation of how to move the aileron/elevator control lever.

If a spectator is on the property, I emphatically insist that she or he take at least a 5 minute intro flight. That usually ends up being the 20 minutes I offer everyone. I am a IP and allowed to give anyone a flight on my trainer. Once in a blue moon, someone absolutely refuses to take a flight. If someone comes from out of state to learn enough to earn their solo wings in their club, I will stay with them and only ask for enough to pay for a gallon of fuel ($25 per gallon). BTW, we have two beautiful large county owned flying fields, which are mostly deserted all flying season.
Sep 17, 2019, 11:18 AM
aka ShadowVFX
Suko's Avatar
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaflyer
And while I’m at it,
what an utterly stupid thing to say for someone who has been here bashing
all the “droners “ for their lack of personal responsibility .
Says the guy who just did 3 posts back-to-back because he doesn't know how to use the edit button as he attempts to troll and inflame people.

Edit: Wow, looking at your recent post history it is nothing but arguments and you claiming everyone else is wrong and dumb. You're going straight onto my ignore list.
Sep 17, 2019, 05:06 PM
BFMAC Founding Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaflyer
And while Iím at it,
what an utterly stupid thing to say for someone who has been here bashing
all the ďdroners ď for their lack of personal responsibility .
Citation?
Sep 17, 2019, 11:03 PM
Short bursts, Don't waste ammo
RCAV8R1964's Avatar
The FAA now requires 1500 hrs and a check ride in a full motion sim if you plan to fly anything under 250gms.
Sep 17, 2019, 11:16 PM
BFMAC Founding Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCAV8R1964
The FAA now requires 1500 hrs and a check ride in a full motion sim if you plan to fly anything under 250gms.
Hopefully FAA will grant an exemption for AMA paid members (verified) flying at AMA chartered club fields.


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