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Sep 02, 2019, 10:50 AM
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mgosson's Avatar
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Discussion

Kaos Style Pattern Plane - ARF


I’ve been discussing at great lengths the idea of having a Kaos “Style” pattern plane produced that appeals to the masses. This would be an ARF with similar completeness to the Tower Kaos with modifications to bring a more “up to date appearance”. In up to date I mean a better looking color scheme that incorporates high quality construction and few additional features, more details to follow.

Approximate size would be in the 62” – 64” wing span range and powered .60 size motor (gas, nitro, electric).

Please bear in mind, the goal is to produce a reasonably priced ARF built around a very simplistic design, and not retain all classic features.

If this is a viable option and the market will support such a kit I believe availability would be somewhere in the second or third quarter of 2020. This ARF would be stocked and sold through a legitimate dealer here in the USA; I’m simply the one who will get the ball rolling and determine if the market will support such a plane.

The current price that Tower is / was selling their version is simply not possible. I believe that’s part of the reason it’s been unavailable for the past 18 months, among other issues.

What is a fair and reasonable price you would expect to pay for an ARF of similar size and completeness?

As I compile more data i.e. feedback I will ask additional questions on what YOU think the market wants and is willing to accept. Please bear in mind, the more “Stuff” you want the higher the cost.

This brief intro will be posted here as well as a few other sites. The more feedback I receive, the better.

I’ll keep you in the loop.
MB Gosson
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Sep 02, 2019, 11:30 AM
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Best pattern arf so far has been the P-7?
Sep 02, 2019, 11:36 AM
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mgosson's Avatar
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P-7?
Help me out with this one, are you referring to the Phoenix?
Sep 02, 2019, 12:27 PM
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cannondale1974's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgosson
P-7?
Help me out with this one, are you referring to the Phoenix?
Yes he is. Bring this one back for $350-$400 and you will make a lot of people very happy.
https://www.horizonhobby.com/phoenix...60-arf-han4755
Sep 02, 2019, 12:42 PM
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mgosson's Avatar
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A fiberglass fuselage is not something I could pursue with this specific builder, it must be produced from wood / balsa.
Sep 02, 2019, 02:42 PM
Registered User
I like the idea!

R
Sep 02, 2019, 03:45 PM
AMA 477098, - Jimmy Russell
Mr-Punk's Avatar
A Kaos like design would be easy to build for whoever is building them. Keep the moments and dims about the same, name it something Kaos like and we will see if SPA will allow it being a derivative of the Kaos. I'm sure they would. Classic arfs are in high demand right now.

If it's a film covered balsa Arf with hardware, a hatch with provisions for glow or elec it should sell like hotcakes.

I'd say $200-$250 would be quite the deal.

Just my 2cents.
Jimmy,
Knoxville, TN
Last edited by Mr-Punk; Sep 02, 2019 at 03:48 PM. Reason: fixed spelling
Sep 02, 2019, 03:49 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Mike,

The idea is wonderful and definitely necessary. However trying to keep the price point to $350 (even $400) for a balsa ARF and to compete with the Asian vendors and make a profit can be very challenging. Sky Aviation did try to create a market with selling Marabu. I don't think they are in business anymore. Pattern planes are simple too small and limited market.

This will have to be done for the love of pattern planes. Contrary to what other posters are saying I very much don't think pattern planes, be it classic or not are in high demand. A DJI multi rotor is definitely in high demand but definitely NOT a pattern plane. If the market world wide can create a pattern plane market for less than 1000 pieces a year the market is not in high demand. I very much doubt there is a market for anywhere near 1000 pieces a year for an ARF pattern plane right now.

Even the most popular Tower Kaos ARF, Phoenix Typhoon or what ever pattern ARF you see from the Asian vendors are most likely numbered in the hundreds and not anywhere near 1000 per year.

Then there is no way anyone in the US can produce an ARF pattern plane for less than $300 and stay in business for long. Even with you spearheading the project and getting a factory to produce in Asian, getting an ARF at the price point of less than $300 like the Tower 60 Kaos ARF is not going to make money. I really doubt Tower was making any money selling the Tower Kaos ARF at $165.00. If that was a profitable venture Tower/Horizon will still be selling them right now.
Last edited by SeismicCWave; Sep 02, 2019 at 03:55 PM.
Sep 02, 2019, 06:04 PM
Tom
Here is my take. MB Gosson flys with me. (Or is it I fly with him? lol) To put it out there, I am a new wanna-be pattern pilot. I did my first contest this year. This plane will be aimed at people just like me, I assume. People who don't want to spend the 1k plus for an entry pattern plane but would like to try their hand. This hobby NEEDS a new infusion of flyers.

That being said, I feel it should be priced alongside the typical sport plane yet capable of doing Club Class and/or Sportsman. Just for the sake of conversation starter here, I propose this should be electric only. Beefing up the assembly to make it glow capable would not be cost effective IMO. Go with your target buyers. I may be wrong but.... just my opinion. Forget retracts.

I have a scratch built 2m Chaos on the build table right now. I did for it for reasons mentioned. If I don't cut it in pattern comp it will still make an excellent sport flyer. Also has great publicity as a good design.

All comes down to price/quality.

Tom
Sep 02, 2019, 07:58 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannondale1974
Yes he is. Bring this one back for $350-$400 and you will make a lot of people very happy.
https://www.horizonhobby.com/phoenix...60-arf-han4755
Yes and yes.
Sep 03, 2019, 10:53 AM
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mgosson's Avatar
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SeismicCWave and Therapy are right on every front. The idea is to have one produced built around a recognized design, much easier to market and sell all while keeping the cost low.

I have plan B which is a newer design and might be more appealing to the current market. The problem is lack of recognition and it would ultimately not met our expected goals.

I have a very reputable builder that will or should be able to produce most anything I ask. If I have to create a market this simply won't be worth the time invested.

As I gather more info I'll ask more questions to formulate a better plan of attack. I'm fact finding now and appreciate the input here.
Sep 03, 2019, 11:54 AM
Registered User
It would be nice to know what the plan B is. It might spark more interest then plan A. To gauge interest you should know what both ideas are. The cheaper option might not be the best

Maybe plan B would still bring enough interest to make a kit or ready to cover option also
Last edited by nappyroots2182; Sep 03, 2019 at 12:56 PM.
Sep 03, 2019, 12:33 PM
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jpurcha's Avatar
It's one thing to have someone build 2-3 models for you, but would anyone want to build the quantity necessary to make this reasonable. Or does your friend have other sources to assist in building. Building time is not cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgosson
I have a very reputable builder that will or should be able to produce most anything I ask. If I have to create a market this simply won't be worth the time invested.
Latest blog entry: MAAC Wings
Sep 03, 2019, 02:43 PM
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mgosson's Avatar
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My friend has been in the online hobby business for a number of years. I'm trying to convince him to offer a plane that would fill a void. He has the connections to have it built, I'm trying to determine if there's a market for it.

Maybe the Kaos is not the best option, hence why I'm asking here.

As far as Plan B goes, this might be a better offering but my guess is, it might too costly.

Here's Plan B.

I know this photo was taken from RCG but it was the best looking one I found. It is for reference only.
Last edited by mgosson; Sep 03, 2019 at 02:57 PM.
Sep 03, 2019, 04:16 PM
A man with too many toys
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgosson
My friend has been in the online hobby business for a number of years. I'm trying to convince him to offer a plane that would fill a void. He has the connections to have it built, I'm trying to determine if there's a market for it.

Maybe the Kaos is not the best option, hence why I'm asking here.

As far as Plan B goes, this might be a better offering but my guess is, it might too costly.

Here's Plan B.

I know this photo was taken from RCG but it was the best looking one I found. It is for reference only.
I have never liked the looks of that type of fuselage. I like the classic look much better.

.


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