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Aug 29, 2019, 09:24 AM
Trader Rating: 4
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So, you think anytime goods are delivered that allegedly don’t conform to a contract the police can investigate a crime? Watch out, Amazon.

I’ll say it again-they can only lawfully investigate when it is reasonable under all the circumstances to believe a crime was committed, not a civil matter. If they lack a reasonable suspicion or probable cause of a CRIME, they act illegally. Even Florida’s LE Ethics Code makes the clear, too.

Let’s say you are a cop, what rationally takes these circumstances out of the civil area to that of a crime? Like it or not, in Florida Mr. Seller could use a model or sample without saying so since he is a merchant seller, routinely selling these goods. Like it or not, the buyer exercised the CHOICE given to him of friends or not. Sharp practice? Probably, but no rational reason to suspect a crime....

That this guy was able to get the cops to do this should scare you, not give you confidence in them.
Last edited by Alopath; Aug 29, 2019 at 09:34 AM.
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Aug 29, 2019, 09:25 AM
Trader Rating: 6
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Well true and false,, it's a judgement call by the Police,,

Yes, In most cases this would be considered a Civil matter and the OP would have been told he needs to file a small claims case to get his money back

But,, if there is an accusation of intentional "Fraud" police can choose to investigate,, It looks like that's what they did, they found nothing to justify an arrest and moved on,,, There is no evidence or even a hint the officers tried to intimidate the seller into refunding money,,

Your assertion they somehow misused their power is absurd



Who said they were trying to intimidate the guy? I was asking what the purpose was for their visit in the first place since this is a he said I said matter. My assertion they somehow misused their power is absurd is ridiculous. If the OP wasn't a police officer a visit probably wouldn't have taken place. If you think for a second that you or I could call a police department in another state and say " Hey, I bought a drone from a guy online and it wasn't what he had pictured or said it was and he won't return my money" I think the answer would be " It's a civil matter and you need to file a small claims case in the proper jurisdiction. Both parties here are not innocent but the seller should refund the money. Getting the police involved over a bad ad is his choice but I would bet his badge had a huge influence . just saying
Aug 29, 2019, 09:38 AM
Trader Rating: 158
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kimchiyuk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter12224
Getting the police involved over a bad ad is his choice but I would bet his badge had a huge influence . just saying
Guarantee it did! What I've been MOST curious about following this thread is the conversation between the OP and the Police Dept. In Hadaway's jurisdiction to give that Police Dept. REASONABLE cause to show up at his house....but I'm sure NOBODY but the OP and a few select officers in Florida will ever know that!
Also guarantee any one of us Joe Blow's had the same issue and called the Poilce hundreds or thousands of miles away; we would hear plenty of laughter on their end!
Aug 29, 2019, 09:42 AM
Trader Rating: 200
Z06 Tony's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alopath
Like it or not, in Florida Mr. Seller could use a model or sample without saying so since he is a merchant seller, routinely selling these goods.
Not sure where you are getting your info but this is not correct at all. This only pertains to "new" goods not used. If the listing does not have a disclaimer stating you will not receive the goods in the pictures it is false advertising and the seller would lose in small claims court every time. Does not matter if the seller is a merchant seller or not.
Aug 29, 2019, 09:45 AM
Trader Rating: 4
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by firefighter12224
Well true and false,, it's a judgement call by the Police,,

Yes, In most cases this would be considered a Civil matter and the OP would have been told he needs to file a small claims case to get his money back

But,, if there is an accusation of intentional "Fraud" police can choose to investigate,, It looks like that's what they did, they found nothing to justify an arrest and moved on,,, There is no evidence or even a hint the officers tried to intimidate the seller into refunding money,,

Your assertion they somehow misused their power is absurd


Who said they were trying to intimidate the guy? I was asking what the purpose was for their visit in the first place since this is a he said I said matter. My assertion they somehow misused their power is absurd is ridiculous. If the OP wasn't a police officer a visit probably wouldn't have taken place. If you think for a second that you or I could call a police department in another state and say " Hey, I bought a drone from a guy online and it wasn't what he had pictured or said it was and he won't return my money" I think the answer would be " It's a civil matter and you need to file a small claims case in the proper jurisdiction. Both parties here are not innocent but the seller should refund the money. Getting the police involved over a bad ad is his choice but I would bet his badge had a huge influence . just saying
No, it is not a judgment call when there is no rational reason to support the suspicion or belief that a crime has occurred. It is not a criminal wrong to do what one has a right to do, or display a sample or model, though it may be a deceptive or unfair civil wrong. When there is no rational reason, there is no rational reason for a judgment call, and it is just plain unlawful, illegal and unconstitutional. It’s like saying one exercises judgment in deciding to rob a bank, it is a non sequitur, and I suspect these cops knew it.
Last edited by Alopath; Aug 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM.
Aug 29, 2019, 09:50 AM
Trader Rating: 4
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z06 Tony
Not sure where you are getting your info but this is not correct at all. This only pertains to "new" goods not used. If the listing does not have a disclaimer stating you will not receive the goods in the pictures it is false advertising and the seller would lose in small claims court every time. Does not matter if the seller is a merchant seller or not.
First, there is no distinction in Florida between a routine seller of new and used goods, (this is a guy who routinely sells used goods identical to these so while he may have arguably committed a deceptive or unfair trade practice by not disclosing the use of a sample or model in a photo, it is purely a civil and not a criminal act/matter) and secondly, you just made the point that the police had no RIGHT to investigate. Yes, it is purely civil. Deceptive or unfair trade practices are not always crimes, and more often are not. The guy’s complaint goes to the QUALITY of the goods delivered, not that he never got them or was scammed out of the money, clearly crimes. Sum: a merchant seller is one who routinely sells new or used goods of the same or similar kind, and a merchant seller can rightfully, and often does find it expedient to use a standard ad, with a sample or model-so, yes, it matters if he is a merchant seller since in any criminal accusation, it shows that he committed no CRIME in doing what he had a right to do, though there may be a civil wrong.

There is nothing that would rationally support an investigation, and if you believe the seller even slightly, the cops only asked him about the quality of the goods and little else.

Now, why doesn’t the buyer chime in and tell us what he said to the Florida cops that WOULD support reasonable suspicion, or probable cause, and thus a lawful CRIMINAL investigation? (Given the seller appears to use deceptive or unfair trade practices.)

Apart from the seller’s practices, what surprises me here is how willing people seem to be to overlook what the Florida police appear to have done, even in the face of their Law Enforcement Code of Ethics. I mean, they did take an oath when they put on the badge....

As a purely practical matter, do you want the police wasting your tax dollars on purely civil complaints?

As for my comment about the donut squad, I was wrong to generalize like that and I’m sorry.
Last edited by Alopath; Aug 29, 2019 at 10:34 AM.
Aug 29, 2019, 10:37 AM
Trader Rating: 200
Z06 Tony's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alopath
First, there is no distinction in Florida between a routine seller of new and used goods, (this is a guy who routinely sells used goods identical to these so while he may have arguably committed a deceptive or unfair trade practice by not disclosing the use of a sample or model in a photo, it is purely a civil and not a criminal act/matter) and secondly, you just made the point that the police had no RIGHT to investigate. Yes, it is purely civil. Deceptive or unfair trade practices are not always crimes, and more often are not. The guy’s complaint goes to the QUALITY of the goods delivered, not that he never got them or was scammed out of the money, clearly crimes. Sum: a merchant seller is one who routinely sells new or used goods of the same or similar kind, and a merchant seller can rightfully, and often does find it expedient to use a standard ad, with a sample or model-so, yes, it matters if he is a merchant seller since in any criminal accusation, it shows that he committed no CRIME in doing what he had a right to do, though there may be a civil wrong.

There is nothing that would rationally support an investigation, and if you believe the seller even slightly, the cops only asked him about the quality of the goods and little else.

Now, why doesn’t the buyer chime in and tell us what he said to the Florida cops that WOULD support reasonable suspicion, or probable cause, and thus a lawful CRIMINAL investigation? (Given the seller appears to use deceptive or unfair trade practices.)

Apart from the seller’s practices, what surprises me here is how willing people seem to be to overlook what the Florida police appear to have done, even in the face of their Law Enforcement Code of Ethics. I mean, they did take an oath when they put on the badge....

As a purely practical matter, do you want the police wasting your tax dollars on purely civil complaints?
I never thought for 1 second or implied that the seller can get arrested for this. Just that he would lose in small claims court. What he did was def unfair business practices.
As far as weather the buyer personally sent the LEO to the sellers house we do not know. He could have told one of his LEO buddies and they could have called someone and asked them to stop over. If that's the case the buyer did not do anything wrong.
No I do not want LEO to start investigating every civil matter. I agree with you on that.
Aug 29, 2019, 10:41 AM
Trader Rating: 4
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z06 Tony
I never thought for 1 second or implied that the seller can get arrested for this. Just that he would lose in small claims court. What he did was def unfair business practices.
As far as weather the buyer personally sent the LEO to the sellers house we do not know. He could have told one of his LEO buddies and they could have called someone and asked them to stop over. If that's the case the buyer did not do anything wrong.
No I do not want LEO to start investigating every civil matter. I agree with you on that.
Well, Tony is it possible I have some information you don’t?

Also, cheater or not, the seller claims the Florida cops told him the buyer made a direct complaint to them which they were investigating. Go back and read his claims, above.

However, the buyer can clear all this up if ever comes back....

This is very troubling.
Aug 29, 2019, 10:44 AM
Trader Rating: 563
EDF all the way!
bruff's Avatar
Guys you need to go through "Trader Talk" you maybe surprised how many times the cops have been asked to go to somebody's home and talk to them concerning an internet sale. It is not that uncommon.
Bob
Aug 29, 2019, 10:45 AM
Trader Rating: 229
Old newb
Anybody else notice the high caliber of this quadrama?

16 pages and counting.

Oh boy, oh boy!

And ya, this horse is soooo dead....but it is a trollful joy to watch....

Aug 29, 2019, 10:47 AM
Trader Rating: 4
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by hadawayj
Ok, I was just sitting in my home, alone, when the doorbell rang. I opened the door and was greeted by a very nice and polite officer. He asked me my name, to confirm who I was. No problem with this but I was starting to worry about my wife who was not at home. He then said he was there on a complaint from a deputy in SC about a purchase he had made. We discussed it and he said not to worry about it he would take care of it. Complaint dismissed but the damage was done. I received three phone calls from neighbors asking why the police were at my home and could they do anything to help. Not quite the end when my wife returned home she asked about it and she was blocks away playing cards.
I would suggest that “if” this is ambiguous on whether the buyer intentionally set all this in motion, the most likely understanding is that a phone call was received directly from the buyer.

Again, the buyer can clear all this up, but I think your scenario is highly unlikely.

None of this excuses the seller!
Aug 29, 2019, 10:55 AM
Trader Rating: 158
Registered User
kimchiyuk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z06 Tony
As far as weather the buyer personally sent the LEO to the sellers house we do not know. He could have told one of his LEO buddies and they could have called someone and asked them to stop over. If that's the case the buyer did not do anything wrong.
The OP said in his first post that he made the call to the sellers local Police Dept., so we DO know!
How is having "one of your buddies" (another fellow cop) send someone over not "doing anything wrong", if no crime was committed?? Drmalenko being a cop himself should know exactly what is and is not legal and what constitutes a punishable CRIME. The seller did something shady, but I don't for a second believe it was illegal or a crime. So WHAT was the purpose of the police to show up at Hadaway's house, if not to "persuade" or other convince him by the OP fellow officers. After reading keeping up with the police involvement part of this; I'm actually not favoring the buyer anymore.
Aug 29, 2019, 10:59 AM
Trader Rating: 4
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruff
Guys you need to go through "Trader Talk" you maybe surprised how many times the cops have been asked to go to somebody's home and talk to them concerning an internet sale. It is not that uncommon.
Bob
True, and more often than not, they don’t involve the quality of the goods actually delivered, but rather NO delivery after some period of time, or no return of goods after a refund-each of which tends to support police investigations on CRIMINAL fraud! But, in any event, multiple wrongs don’t make a practice right, and these matters are always decided on a case by case basis.

I agree, the horse is dead. It would be best to leave further comments to the buyer and seller, and I make one last appeal to them-put fault on any and all matters aside and settle, which means hold your respective noses and compromise.

Buyer, there is an offer so accept it or make a counter.
Aug 29, 2019, 11:16 AM
Trader Rating: 3
Old new guy
TheX's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alopath
I agree, the horse is dead. It would be best to leave further comments to the buyer and seller, and I make one last appeal to them-put fault on any and all matters aside and settle, which means hold your respective noses and compromise.

Buyer, there is an offer so accept it or make a counter.
Or close this thread and take it to PMs. That's where that part of the conversation belongs.
Aug 29, 2019, 11:20 AM
Trader Rating: 200
Z06 Tony's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchiyuk
The OP said in his first post that he made the call to the sellers local Police Dept., so we DO know!
How is having "one of your buddies" (another fellow cop) send someone over not "doing anything wrong", if no crime was committed?? Drmalenko being a cop himself should know exactly what is and is not legal and what constitutes a punishable CRIME. The seller did something shady, but I don't for a second believe it was illegal or a crime. So WHAT was the purpose of the police to show up at Hadaway's house, if not to "persuade" or other convince him by the OP fellow officers. After reading keeping up with the police involvement part of this; I'm actually not favoring the buyer anymore.
Sorry you are correct he did call. If this is considered bait and switch it is a crime and punishable by law.
https://www.legalmatch.com/law-libra...nd-switch.html


***Is Bait and Switch Legal?
“Bait and switch” is a crime, and is considered a fraudulent sales tactic that is punishable by law as false advertisement under the Lanham Act. Even though the “bait and switch” practice is a crime, it is commonly used in retail sales business. Bait and switch tactics are regularly used in advertisements for major department stores, electronic and computer stores, and automobile retailers. To avoid prosecution for the “bait and switch” tactics, advertisements usually contain small print stating that the store does not allow rain checks or that the discount on the item is limited to the quantity currently available in the store.***

What Are Some Examples of Bait and Switch?
Even though the Federal Trade Commission monitors advertisements and enforces laws that prohibit false advertising, there are plenty of bait and switch advertisements that consumers need to look out for:
Dealership Ads: A common bait and switch tactic is used by car dealership retailers where they advertise a “one of a kind” low price vehicle for which they claim they have a limited supply in stock. Once the customer goes to the dealership to purchase the car because they like the low price, the dealership claims that the all the cars at that price have been sold, but there are other similar cars available. This could be legal since the dealership could just claim that they had the car, but sold it to other customers.
While Supplies Last Ads: One common bait and switch sales tactic is offering free products to go along with another priced product just to drive foot traffic to the store. The retail store also limits these free products to a small quantity so that they are gone by the time a majority of the customers arrive at the store.
Financing: Companies will offer low financing rates for cars and appliances, and will promise that almost everyone is eligible at these low rates in order to drive the customer to the store. The bait and switch in these financing ads is that usually only people with very good credit are qualified for these low interest rates, while a majority of the customers that come in the store do not qualify for the advertised rates.

*****Actual Item Not Pictured: Advertisements that show a specific product which looks great on television, but the item that is actually being advertised at that price is not pictured. This would be legal only if the fine print states that the actual item being advertised is not pictured.****


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