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Aug 19, 2019, 09:56 PM
Sea Dragon-Lover
Umi_Ryuzuki's Avatar
Run water through it, measure the RPM, then see if that is enough
RPM to run your generator, or alternator.

If not then recalculate.
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Aug 19, 2019, 10:13 PM
Just Plane Nutts
AirDOGGe's Avatar
"... proof-of-concept ..."

What is the concept to be proved here? Centrifugal water pumps, which is what one would have if they tried to turn a turbocharger compressor into a water pump, have been around since the 17th century, LONG-since proven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_pump#History
Last edited by AirDOGGe; Aug 19, 2019 at 10:36 PM.
Aug 20, 2019, 06:09 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
" Centrifugal water pumps, which is what one would have if they tried to turn a turbocharger compressor into a water pump, have been around since the 17th century, LONG-since proven.

from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_pump#History

"The reverse function of the centrifugal pump is a water turbine converting potential energy of water pressure into mechanical rotational energy.

exactly the case to be studied

nice hint from the above link

"Magnetically coupled pumps

I have direct drive motor from washing machine for tests.

"... proof-of-concept ..."

stays for the concept of reversing a centrifugal water pump, simulated by turbocharger (for tests) into water turbine + generator ( for tests)
since there is no direct symmetry in turning pump into turbine (energy generator)

Not sure if turning c entrifugal water pump into water turbine may work and at what efficiency (replacing stator with rotor by analogy - http://dronenodes.com/drone-motors-brushless-guide/

replacing outlet with inlet may get complicated to some extend.

But this impeller looks really impressive for tests

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped....240p.vp9.webm
Aug 20, 2019, 09:18 AM
Big Boats Rule!
boater_dave's Avatar
The concept of using a vertical tower of water as an energy storage dump is not new. Look at every water tower in every city all over the world. But if you are designing an energy storage device, don't you want to move the water up using the least amount of energy? If it takes you three times the energy to lift the water than you get out by releasing the water, why do it? The best you can hope for is slightly less energy out than in. The only advantage may come in the form of long term tiny energy to fill the tank, but a burst of energy released when emptied. This almost demands that the lift pump and turbine be two different systems. This is what all the kids see when the huge bucket of water dumps out every 15 minutes at the water park.

Using off peak power to lift water to a higher elevation reservoir so it can be used for peak demand power generation...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped...droelectricity
Aug 20, 2019, 10:44 AM
AndyKunz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boater_dave
But if you are designing an energy storage device, don't you want to move the water up using the least amount of energy? If it takes you three times the energy to lift the water than you get out by releasing the water, why do it?
Maybe it's a side-effect of the storage of the water, the primary purpose of the reservoir?

That's exactly the situation for the Merrill Creek Reservoir in NJ. They pump water up during non-peak times, so that they have cooling water for downstream nuke plants when they need it during peak demand.

Pumping the water up takes lots of power. They could get a little back when they drain it, but the purpose of draining isn't for the energy they could get, but so the nuke plants can run at full capacity.

I grew up there before/while they were building it. My school bus used to run down through there, below the bottom of where the big dam is now.

The trail is nice, but I miss driving on Allen Mill Rd.

https://merrillcreek.com/

Andy
Aug 20, 2019, 11:08 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
thank you

a nice reference from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped...droelectricity

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...874?via%3Dihub
Pumped hydro energy storage in buildings

and more

A novel pumped hydro-energy storage scheme with wind energy for power generation at constant voltage in rural areas
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60148118305494


Pumped hydro energy storage system: A technological review
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...64032115000106

BTW
"The round-trip energy efficiency of PSH varies between 70%–80%,[4][5][6][7] with some sources claiming up to 87%.[8

claimed efficiency as abopve, has never been verified to not close new projects

Some claim 30% efficiency stays for real data.

read more from Herox
https://www.herox.com/fast


Today science is made for money
https://s100.copyright.com/AppDispat...BeanReset=true
Aug 20, 2019, 02:35 PM
Big Boats Rule!
boater_dave's Avatar
Andy, I would certainly agree there may be several reasons why you would want/need to pump water uphill. For the heck of it wouldn't be one of them. In you example having cooling water available for a nuke plant would appear to be fairly critical. And what better place to do it? Lots of nearly free energy available during off peak hours to pump, even with less than stellar efficiencies. But if conserving power is your goal, losing a bunch of it in the conversion between units doesn't make any sense. Remember that guy here in the forum that used a high voltage battery, esc and motor to drive a generator to power the drive motors? That's right, three motors in his drive system. He did it because he had a high voltage battery/esc/motor and needed to power a boat. Everyone said why not just use the correct esc & motor?

I (think I) remember the comparison between Europe and the US in the use of corn to produce alcohol for use as an auto fuel. In Europe, the unused portion of their food/feed crop was converted (scavenged) into the alcohol production. Essentially rescuing what normally gets discarded. But in the US, they grew corn specifically for methanol production. It was reported that more diesel fuel (+ other energy) was burned to grow the corn than the methanol provided in return. A net loss of energy. But the farmers were happy.


Dave
Aug 20, 2019, 02:51 PM
AndyKunz's Avatar
Don't believe those reports, Dave.

Andy
Aug 20, 2019, 03:15 PM
Registered User
Pumped storage has been around a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station
If you happen to visit North Wales, its a tourist attraction as well, quite close to the Ffestiniog Railway.
Aug 20, 2019, 03:42 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
" In a common scenario (known as TV pickup), the end of a popular national television programme or advertising breaks in commercial television programmes results in millions of consumers switching on electric kettles in the space of a few minutes, leading to overall demand increases of up to 2800 MW.[5] In anticipation of this surge, an appropriate number of units at Dinorwig (or other services competing for National Grid Reserve Service duty) may be brought on line as the closing credits start to roll. The monitoring of popular television channels is an important factor in electricity grid control centres.

TV controlling the grid

thank you
Aug 20, 2019, 04:14 PM
Just Plane Nutts
AirDOGGe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfr02
Pumped storage has been around a while.

In the 1960s they dammed off a huge valley near the S.F. bay area I use to pass through during Xmas season as a child visiting relatives. 4 huge pumps fill it with excess fresh water during heavy rainy seasons that would normally just flow back to the ocean, and then slowly release it again during the dry part of the year into the aqueducts heading towards dry southern California. The lake makes for great striped bass fishing too.

Water levels got so low during the drought that the huge pump towers were fully exposed for the first time in almost 3 decades:







When full, all you can see is their tops:




Quote:
San Luis Dam, also known as B.F. Sisk Dam, is 382 feet tall and 18,600 feet long, and impounds up to 2 million acre-feet of water. It is the largest offstream dam in the United States.
That straight line is a 6-lane freeway running in front of the dam, for size reference. Almost all of the water you see was pumped in, with a tiny part being rain runoff from nearby streams. A lot of farms and beautiful countryside was flooded over to make it:

Last edited by AirDOGGe; Aug 20, 2019 at 11:35 PM.
Aug 20, 2019, 06:37 PM
Latitudes vs Attitudes
Bob Gaito's Avatar
I would imagine that in a earth quake, that causeway might get a little shaky without the 50ft of water dampening the forces!
Latest blog entry: Mark V Navy Seal SOC
Aug 21, 2019, 05:37 PM
Registered User
Hydraulic turbines are in use in a number of oil refinery applications. They employ a centrifugal pump running in "reverse," driven by a high pressure liquid that needs to be let down in pressure. So they use the turbine to recover the energy to drive a pump, that moves another liquid in the process.

Having been a machinery engineer in a refinery for many years, this idea of converting turbocharger into a pump is, quite simply like driving a large square peg into a small round hole. It will be highly inefficient, maybe to the point of consuming more power than it can produce. And the math surrounding how pumps and compressors work makes no sense in this application.
Aug 21, 2019, 06:13 PM
AndyKunz's Avatar
Backup sump pumps work the same way.

Andy
Aug 25, 2019, 02:54 PM
Registered User
A pump using as a turbine or vice versa is very inefficient. The blades/impeller are optimized for the one or the other task, they can't do both efficiently.


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