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Aug 15, 2019, 03:52 PM
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mike3976's Avatar
To claifify, I posted that I'd be in for one SF set, then later I posted , why not two. Definitely in for TWO Sets. Sorry for any trouble, and Thank You for Making this Happen! Mike
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Aug 15, 2019, 04:35 PM
WBE
WBE
White Fang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike3976
To claifify, I posted that I'd be in for one SF set, then later I posted , why not two. Definitely in for TWO Sets. Sorry for any trouble, and Thank You for Making this Happen! Mike
You’re welcome Mike, no trouble at all. I was just trying to be cautious and not inflate the numbers. As I see it there’s a minimum number that Brian needs to make the effort worth his time and then there’s a maximum number that becomes overwhelming for a shop of a given size to produce easily. I don’t know what the maximum is!

Just got home from work so I’ll comb through the thread and try to get an accurate count before the day is over.

Also, if this thread gets too long we could create another thread for “firm commitments only” where the replies will be limited to the type engine and a number. Like “RF-2 SF-1” etc.

Bill
Aug 15, 2019, 04:40 PM
Registered User
Hi Guys,
First, Performance Specialties did not sell out the second run of P/S. The Hanno Special and every other 2-stroke .61 were pretty quickly outdated once the YS 4-stroke started appearing in contests here. I bought the last 5 sets that Dave had in stock about 12 years ago. I was actually buying his OS 160 FX backplate which was set up for the OS 140 pump; so I could have an 'internal' pump on my 160 instead of the Perry pump (which works just as well, but more plumbing). During our chat, he mentioned remaining stock and I offered to buy him out not knowing that there would be another production run of parts.

Andy, and anybody else with concerns: I am not interested in making money here, however I do want to get my money back. Based on the latest numbers, it looks like I would order at least 50 sets combined (which is more than $6,000 USD). While I have not addressed exclusivity with Brian (yet), I will seriously reconsider my offer If I don't get at least a year to sell what I have purchased. I do not want to end up with with a bunch of unsold parts. I would be happy to back out now, but I would strongly advise Brian to require pre-payment of orders, at least until he reaches the 20 set minimum he requested.

As for the cost of shipping stuff, I can't speak for shipping out of Australia (and more specifically tariffs), but a small box of model airplane parts can probably valued any way Brian wants. Shipping one box of everything to me will be far cheaper than shipping 40 or 50 packages and shipping from here to Europe will be cheaper than from Australia.

Also, if this deal goes forward in any manner, I suspect that Brian will be amenable to much smaller productions runs in the future if there is need as he will already have done the set-up (which I am assuming is mostly programming the CNC machinery). This was part of the reason that Henry Nelson was willing to do another production run of parts for us 10 years ago; the set-up had been done about 15 years earlier. That and getting a certified check for $6300 :-) I should mention that the most labor intensive part of the process is the chroming and hand fitting of the pistons to the sleeve.

Lastly, this is really not a great money making investment. If I pay Brian $125 a set and order 50 sets, I will have $6250 'invested'. If I raise the price to $150, I will have to sell 42 sets just to break even while risking the possibility of losing sales and ending up with a lot of parts I can't sell. Plus, if I am making a profit off the sale of these parts then I feel I assume some responsibility for any defects which I definitely don't want to deal with. I just want to facilitate the process and maybe keep a couple side exhaust sets.

I plan on ordering more sets than are requested here as there will probably be enough demand.

-Will
Last edited by flywilly57; Aug 15, 2019 at 04:45 PM.
Aug 15, 2019, 05:00 PM
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SeismicCWave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by flywilly57
Hi Guys,
First, Performance Specialties did not sell out the second run of P/S. The Hanno Special and every other 2-stroke .61 were pretty quickly outdated once the YS 4-stroke started appearing in contests here. I bought the last 5 sets that Dave had in stock about 12 years ago. I was actually buying his OS 160 FX backplate which was set up for the OS 140 pump; so I could have an 'internal' pump on my 160 instead of the Perry pump (which works just as well, but more plumbing). During our chat, he mentioned remaining stock and I offered to buy him out not knowing that there would be another production run of parts.

Andy, and anybody else with concerns: I am not interested in making money here, however I do want to get my money back. Based on the latest numbers, it looks like I would order at least 50 sets combined (which is more than $6,000 USD). While I have not addressed exclusivity with Brian (yet), I will seriously reconsider my offer If I don't get at least a year to sell what I have purchased. I do not want to end up with with a bunch of unsold parts. I would be happy to back out now, but I would strongly advise Brian to require pre-payment of orders, at least until he reaches the 20 set minimum he requested.

As for the cost of shipping stuff, I can't speak for shipping out of Australia (and more specifically tariffs), but a small box of model airplane parts can probably valued any way Brian wants. Shipping one box of everything to me will be far cheaper than shipping 40 or 50 packages and shipping from here to Europe will be cheaper than from Australia.

Also, if this deal goes forward in any manner, I suspect that Brian will be amenable to much smaller productions runs in the future if there is need as he will already have done the set-up (which I am assuming is mostly programming the CNC machinery). This was part of the reason that Henry Nelson was willing to do another production run of parts for us 10 years ago; the set-up had been done about 15 years earlier. That and getting a certified check for $6300 :-) I should mention that the most labor intensive part of the process is the chroming and hand fitting of the pistons to the sleeve.

Lastly, this is really not a great money making investment. If I pay Brian $125 a set and order 50 sets, I will have $6250 'invested'. If I raise the price to $150, I will have to sell 42 sets just to break even while risking the possibility of losing sales and ending up with a lot of parts I can't sell. Plus, if I am making a profit off the sale of these parts then I feel I assume some responsibility for any defects which I definitely don't want to deal with. I just want to facilitate the process and maybe keep a couple side exhaust sets.

I plan on ordering more sets than are requested here as there will probably be enough demand.

-Will
Thanks Will I understand the economics very well. As I mentioned before all the commitments so far are just words on an electronic forum. Not very solid in my opinion. However you are the one having to commit real dollars to Brian. So I am volunteering and hopefully others will follow my foot step to offset your cash outlay by pre-payment to you. Once we paid then you consider it a solid commitment. The rest are simply electronic pixels on the computer screens. All the words can disappear as fast as this thread.

So please let me know when you are ready to take deposits or an estimated full payment.

As far as how much the sets will cost you and how much you are willing to sell them for, that should remain a private issue discussed between you and Brian. The problem is that once the numbers are available to the public every one will have an opinion on whether you are charging too much or not enough. That can kill the wind in the sail of this project faster than a doldrum. Whether you are making a profit or not, at least make enough to cover your costs. That's for both you and Brian. I want to see this project going forward and not get side tracked.
Aug 15, 2019, 05:42 PM
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AndyOne's Avatar
For clarity rather than listing the total quantity of P/L sets, would it be better to have a list of names with their requirements so we can correct/add to it as necessary.
Aug 15, 2019, 06:53 PM
WBE
WBE
White Fang
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Yes I can do that AndyOne, good idea. I’ll place the current list in the first post.

Please understand that the initial purpose of this thread was to see if there were enough interest in reproducing aftermarket parts for the O.S. 61SF only. It has expanded (that’s good!) and it looks like Brian is willing to help out the guys needing parts for the rear exhaust version as well.

Bill
Last edited by WBE; Aug 15, 2019 at 07:21 PM.
Aug 16, 2019, 04:19 AM
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AndyOne's Avatar
Bill,

Many thanks, now all we need is to show who has committed their cash so that critical-mass can be achieved to allow Brian to go ahead. I am willing to pay up-front, I'm assuming this will be necessary for all respondents.

A.
Aug 16, 2019, 09:37 AM
WBE
WBE
White Fang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyOne
Bill,

Many thanks, now all we need is to show who has committed their cash so that critical-mass can be achieved to allow Brian to go ahead. I am willing to pay up-front, I'm assuming this will be necessary for all respondents.

A.
Andy, paying up front seems perfectly reasonable and I would be willing yo do that as well. The offer from Will was to do just that (for just the U.S. purchasers possibly) as bulk orders for each (RF/SF). Brian states in one of his posts here that “payment is via Paypal when items are ready to ship”. That has been the way he has conducted business with the control line aerobatics group and it has worked out for him.

We actually have the numbers to proceed, we just need to send Brian a couple samples of what we want him to produce.

Bill
Aug 16, 2019, 12:24 PM
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SeismicCWave's Avatar
>>We actually have the numbers to proceed, we just need to send Brian a couple samples of what we want him to produce.<<

Do you know if anyone is actually sending samples to Brian? I am one that has offered to send my 61RF but no one has told me to actually send it yet.
Aug 16, 2019, 12:44 PM
WBE
WBE
White Fang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeismicCWave
>>We actually have the numbers to proceed, we just need to send Brian a couple samples of what we want him to produce.<<

Do you know if anyone is actually sending samples to Brian? I am one that has offered to send my 61RF but no one has told me to actually send it yet.

I don’t think we have sent anything to Brian. Our group still needs to decide the configuration of the sleeves we want reproduced and which engine we want parts for initially. I suggest we ask that he make parts for the RF (shadel/Nelson version) first because there seems to be more demand. We need to give Will and Brian time to work out details too.

If that works out well then we can ask for a run of SF parts. I would suggest we reproduce the Shadel/Nelson version of those as well. If that’s the case someone who has one of those will have to send it to Brian because I only have a stock O.S. version 61SF.
Aug 16, 2019, 01:06 PM
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AndyOne's Avatar
Some time ago I bought a second 61RF which was on some sort of clearance deal from Just Engines. I built one good one from the two. This means I have one I could send to Brian. It would be comprised of used parts. The cylinder is slightly scored but as far as I can tell there was no peeling of the liner. There are some parts missing such as the prop driver, carb and woodruff key. The piston has a carbon deposit as does the head dome. I'm wondering if this would be a good enough example to send.

A.
Aug 16, 2019, 01:28 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WBE
I don’t think we have sent anything to Brian. Our group still needs to decide the configuration of the sleeves we want reproduced and which engine we want parts for initially. I suggest we ask that he make parts for the RF (shadel/Nelson version) first because there seems to be more demand. We need to give Will and Brian time to work out details too.

If that works out well then we can ask for a run of SF parts. I would suggest we reproduce the Shadel/Nelson version of those as well. If that’s the case someone who has one of those will have to send it to Brian because I only have a stock O.S. version 61SF.
Ok I will await further instructions from whom ever is taking charge of this endeavor. I see that you have the list of all those expressing a desire to purchase the piston/liner assembly from Brian on the first post. Very well done. Thank you.
Aug 16, 2019, 01:30 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyOne
Some time ago I bought a second 61RF which was on some sort of clearance deal from Just Engines. I built one good one from the two. This means I have one I could send to Brian. It would be comprised of used parts. The cylinder is slightly scored but as far as I can tell there was no peeling of the liner. There are some parts missing such as the prop driver, carb and woodruff key. The piston has a carbon deposit as does the head dome. I'm wondering if this would be a good enough example to send.

A.
If I read Brian's posts correctly I believe he wanted a good engine to take measurements. Good being new if possible. Right now the issue seems to be more about the measurements of the original Shadel liners. I no longer have a set of those and I believe FlyWilly may have them.
Aug 16, 2019, 03:41 PM
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mike3976's Avatar
I would suggest we reproduce the Shadel/Nelson version for the SF

I'd go with this version, I'd also be happy with a stock replication ABC set. Mike
Either way works for me.
Aug 16, 2019, 03:44 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike3976
I would suggest we reproduce the Shadel/Nelson version for the SF

I'd go with this version, I'd also be happy with a stock replication ABC set. Mike
Either way works for me.
Exactly I will be happy with ANYTHING.


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