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Aug 21, 2019, 02:17 AM
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Yes your absolutely right about the table , my Ender 3 sits on a concrete paving slab , I need to get another for the Ender 5 .
Keresey Fabrications is very honest in his view of his own work and he even shows the whole process involved including all the little design tweeks along the way and that's rare and refreshing , in the last video he freely admits that there's no real improvement and in some cases the original setup performed better , my own view is he should retest without the linear rail on the X axis as that's really the only issue I have .
Devzero what make of linear rails did you use ? I'm just wondering about the wavey effect being possibly an artefact of how they were machined ? The genuine Hywin ( sorry don't know how its spelt ) rails are very expensive , could it be a quality issue ? Reading that back it might sound like I'm saying you fitted cheap crap what do you expect , that's not what I meant at all , fitting genuine Hywin rail to a Creality would be mad ! The rails would cost more than the printer !
Last edited by dadio; Aug 21, 2019 at 02:23 AM.
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Aug 21, 2019, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babblefish
One source of "ringing" or waviness in a print that many don't take into account is the table that the printer is sitting on. If the printer is sitting on something that is light weight and unsteady like some of the IKEA furniture (some of their tables have hollow tops) then with each X or Y movement the table will react, which is something you don't want. One of the YouTuber's, I can't remember who, ran into this issue. He couldn't figure out why his prints kept coming out with ripples on the surface even though everything on his printer was solid. He tried tweeking his slicer settings and that didn't help. He finally noticed how much his printer was moving whenever the carriage moved so he moved the printer to a more solid table with a solid butcher block top and the ripples went away. FWIW, the previous table was an IKEA table, lol. So I guess the moral of the story is any precision instrument needs a solid foundation in order to do it's best...this applies to people too, I guess.
Thanks for that tip, babblefish! Although yeah, I have something of a similar situaton, although the cabinet I have my printer sitting on is definitely more stable than an IKEA table, it makes me think I should find a more stable base for my printer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadio
Yes your absolutely right about the table , my Ender 3 sits on a concrete paving slab , I need to get another for the Ender 5 .
Keresey Fabrications is very honest in his view of his own work and he even shows the whole process involved including all the little design tweeks along the way and that's rare and refreshing , in the last video he freely admits that there's no real improvement and in some cases the original setup performed better , my own view is he should retest without the linear rail on the X axis as that's really the only issue I have .
Devzero what make of linear rails did you use ? I'm just wondering about the wavey effect being possibly an artefact of how they were machined ? The genuine Hywin ( sorry don't know how its spelt ) rails are very expensive , could it be a quality issue ? Reading that back it might sound like I'm saying you fitted cheap crap what do you expect , that's not what I meant at all , fitting genuine Hywin rail to a Creality would be mad ! The rails would cost more than the printer !
Heh. I'd love to be able to drag a big chunk of cement up here to my apartment, but it's small and space limited. The cabinet I mentioned comes in handy to store the growing collection of screws and miscellaneous stuff I've been collecting lately, otherwise I'd find some industrial strength table and replace it. I think I can probably add some braces and improve it quite a bit. It is reasonably sturdy, but it could be better.

As for the rails I installed, they're chromed rods that were not the cheapest, but definitely not Thomson Linear or Hywin quality either. The slide blocks are your run o' the mill cheapo Chinese versions. I know what you mean about when you start looking at proper linear rails they get very expensive very fast. For our requirements where the load is very low on these rails, and absolute accuracy (like into microns) isn't really necessary. The speeds at which we print aren't going to be a problem for this type of equipment, either. While I can't quantify it, the low end linear rods/rails and slide blocks are probably good enough. If we put this stuff on a horizontal boring mill and ran a 1" end mill across a steel plate at a full cut, it would rattle your fillings out. For 3D printing, should be good enough.

I went back and looked at some prints I'd done before I upgraded my extruder and hot end, and whaddaya know,there's waviness there, too. It's not extreme and didn't bother me as the prints look pretty good. I took some pictures and am going to put them in the CR-10 thread I've been prattling in lately, but figured I"d drop a few here too to show what I 'm seeing. I've mentioned this before -- I use lighting to accentuate imperfections so the pictures look way worse than the parts really appear. I'm also using a USB microscope (it's nothing special, but takes pictures that are hard to get with a phone) which makes little imperfections look enormous. The thickness (horizontal) of the part is about 4mm there.

The black part is the original, and was printed at speeds perhaps half of the grey part, which was at 40mm/sec. I've made some other adjustments, such as the extrusion multiplier is now at .9 from 1 among a few small tweaks, and big ones like direct drive, the black part was printed with a Swiss Micro hot end and the grey on a E3D V6.

dadio, I've been working on increasing print speeds due to what you've been mentioning about 80mm/sec being common. I generally haven't pushed print speeds, but feel it's time to put things to the test to see what I can get out of my printer.

Let me know what you think. I've been doing a lot of testing today. Lots of tweaks to settings.
Aug 21, 2019, 06:32 PM
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Sorry about the derailing I've been doing on your thread, dadio. I'll shut up after this.

I was digging around for calculations on the stepper motor requirements for 3D printers when I stumbled across this thread. It provides some information that I found very useful -- and will probably lead me to shelving the plan to go to ball screws on anything I have planned now. Dunno, maybe on the Z axis, but it seems that belts are very capable. Need to do more research.
Aug 22, 2019, 01:37 AM
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Thread OP
For the two pictures , the first looks more like extruder steps , the tiny pulse in the flow when the extruder stepper motor turns a step , these show as vertical waves all the way across a flat vertical plane ,the actual lines look straight to me ,its perverse but a good quality hot end makes this effect more apparent than a crap stock one where the flow is more restrictive , the crappy hot ends flow restriction sort of damps out the pulse effect of the stepper motor in the extruder , the solution is to get a geared extruder , this means you get more steps per mm and smaller pulses , in the second picture the waves are after a 90°corner and decrease as they move away , I'd say that's more of a vibration harmonic after the tight turn ,the hot end carriage or bed (more likely the bed as it has more mass ) has had to stop moving suddenly and the belts act like an elastic band or bungee cord bouncing back and forth , faster printing makes it worse , its kind of what I was trying to explain about making the moving parts as light as you can without losing rigidity will improve your print quality because it minimises this kind of effect , its very hard to do on a big Cartesian printer like the CR10 as the bed is a big object , its why the Core-xy printers were invented , in core-xy the bed just moves down slowly and the Y axis moves the X axis gantry instead because its lighter than the bed .
There may be some virtue in using a ballscrew on the Y axis of your CR-10 as it would remove the bungee cord effect on the belt but it would pass the shock onto the part your printing , not a problem close to the bed but with a tall part the effect might return further up or if the speed is very high it might even shake the part loose .its a double edged blade using belts , they have this bounce that can reduce quality but that very bounce reduces shock loading , I guess with clever software the move could be slowed before it reaches the corner ..... I'm not that clever though .
Last edited by dadio; Aug 22, 2019 at 02:21 AM.
Aug 29, 2019, 11:27 PM
Me and a guy with a mustache
babblefish's Avatar
I guess you already know about this:
Creality Ender 5 Plus: Build and Preview (1 hr 21 min 21 sec)


A king sized Ender 5: 350 x 350 x 400
I like it and the price is right, US$550.
Aug 30, 2019, 02:24 AM
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Thread OP
Yes I saw it , looks like a good machine , why oh why did Creality stick with the Allegro stepper drivers ? They installed a genuine Bltouch as standard but no silent steppers , just seems like a very odd decision on their part .
Its huge as well , not sure where I'd put it , sure I could squeeze it in though !
Aug 30, 2019, 03:11 AM
Me and a guy with a mustache
babblefish's Avatar
I like the print area and all of the extras over the standard Ender 5. I also like that all of the electronics are in one enclosure that is removable. Makes enclosing the printer easier. The only thing I don't like is the Y axis gantry sitting on top of the main frame. This makes it harder to enclose the printer.
As far as noise is concerned, I'm not concerned. I call it "stepper motor singing". Guess I'm used to hearing stepper motors working due to my previous career working around robot/computer controlled production machines all day long. Plus, in order to get stepper motors to run so quiet you're giving up torque/power. I suppose in a 3D printer application torque/power isn't really needed since molten filament doesn't require much to lay it down. Besides, hearing or not hearing the sound lets me know whether or not my print is finished or not without having to see the printer.
Now a CNC router, on the other hand, would fail with quiet drivers. Plus it would be utterly useless since one couldn't hear the steppers over the noise of the router motor and the cutting bit anyway.
Last edited by babblefish; Aug 30, 2019 at 03:18 AM.
Aug 30, 2019, 01:36 PM
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Thread OP
That still leaves the salmon skin , a more up to date driver could cure that even if noise is unimportant , just seemed an odd choice considering its their new baby , an extra £20 (probably a lot less ) to add a very popular feature seems an odd choice ? They could have put another feather in their cap but didn't .
Aug 31, 2019, 12:42 AM
Me and a guy with a mustache
babblefish's Avatar
I'm not sure if using a quiet driver would solve salmon skin. My Ender 3 has the stock controller in it and I'm not seeing salmon skin. The carriage wheels on my X and Z axis's have been tuned to within an inch of their life though and my Y axis rides on a linear rail with two linear blocks.
Aug 31, 2019, 05:03 AM
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Thread OP
That's a fair point , my ender 3 pro never suffered from it overly , I fitted TL smoothers but never really saw any difference , I did hear that the creality boards had a TL smoother as standard but I don't know if that's true , you hear a lot and only some of its true .
Sep 21, 2019, 01:42 PM
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Thread OP
Just fitted a Micro Swiss all metal hot end to my 5 and its doing its first ABS print , I've got a Bltouch kit coming as well and I need to create an enclosure , I might use my Ender 3 enclosure as its too large for it really , then I can just make another for the E3 .
Sep 26, 2019, 01:06 PM
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Thread OP
Bltouch came today so I fitted it and made changes to the firmware , I found a mount for the extruder on Thingiverse that positions it on the back top rail , this allows you to shorten the Bowden tube by nearly 6 inches , mine is now just a little longer than the Bowden on my ender 3 , I can now use much shorter retractions than before ,all that's working well now so that just leaves an enclosure and its done .


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