View Poll Results: Did the AMA blow it?
Yes. The AMA is to blame for our current legal mess. 32 50.00%
Nope. We would be here, or on our way here, regardless of any legal distinction AMA could have tried to make. 32 50.00%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Aug 14, 2019, 04:25 PM
Registered User
smithdoor's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCX2020
Dave, the issue with the 400' limit is that it will eliminate half of the R/C model competition in the US and will remove US teams in those events from entering world championships. That would have a huge ripple effect that will harm the hobby as a whole here in the US. It will also make several millions of dollars worth of models obsolete. It alarms me that anyone who truly has the best interest in the hobby would be OK with this.
I am NOT ok with 400 foot limit but at less I can still fly.

Dave
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Aug 14, 2019, 05:17 PM
Registered User
GeoffS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCX2020
Dave, the issue with the 400' limit is that it will eliminate half of the R/C model competition in the US and will remove US teams in those events from entering world championships. That would have a huge ripple effect that will harm the hobby as a whole here in the US. It will also make several millions of dollars worth of models obsolete. It alarms me that anyone who truly has the best interest in the hobby would be OK with this.
Agreed.
Based on what I've been reading recently probably the most positive action the AMA could take right now is to work with the FAA to streamline the process to authorize sites with higher than 400' ceilings.

I think it is important that R/C fliers accept that the current regulations are not going to "go away" and start looking forward for ways to work with the system to 1) modify the most onerous regulations, and 2) find ways to use the provided tools (waivers, TFRs, LOAs, etc.).

It's also a good thing to remember that this isn't a case of "faceless bureaucrats" at the FAA setting arbitrary rules.
This law was passed overwhelmingly by both houses of congress: https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...house-bill/302
So, a good place to start working on getting changes are your local House and Senate representatives.
Aug 14, 2019, 06:04 PM
Registered User
elan's Avatar
Originally Posted by DCX2020
Dave, the issue with the 400' limit is that it will eliminate half of the R/C model competition in the US and will remove US teams in those events from entering world championships. That would have a huge ripple effect that will harm the hobby as a whole here in the US. It will also make several millions of dollars worth of models obsolete. It alarms me that anyone who truly has the best interest in the hobby would be OK with this.
-----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by california condor
very good post. Thanks.
^+1
Aug 14, 2019, 06:26 PM
Registered User
smithdoor's Avatar
It is sad day.
I am great full we can still fly.
There has a limit of 500 feet since be for 1960's but did here any ever being sited.
Odds are no one will sited flying at any RC field.
As long as no one uses tech for checking altitude then just say "it look like I was under 400 feet"

Dave


Quote:
Originally Posted by elan
Originally Posted by DCX2020
Dave, the issue with the 400' limit is that it will eliminate half of the R/C model competition in the US and will remove US teams in those events from entering world championships. That would have a huge ripple effect that will harm the hobby as a whole here in the US. It will also make several millions of dollars worth of models obsolete. It alarms me that anyone who truly has the best interest in the hobby would be OK with this.
-----------

^+1
Aug 14, 2019, 06:37 PM
Registered User
exf3bguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
It is sad day.
I am great full we can still fly.
There has a limit of 500 feet since be for 1960's but did here any ever being sited.
Odds are no one will sited flying at any RC field.
As long as no one uses tech for checking altitude then just say "it look like I was under 400 feet"

Dave
There has NOT been any law regarding altitude limits except when within 3 miles of an active airport. In 1981 ( pretty sure of the date ) the FAA issued an advisory. That advisory was in effect until this year.
Aug 14, 2019, 06:54 PM
Registered User
smithdoor's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCX2020
There has NOT been any law regarding altitude limits except when within 3 miles of an active airport. In 1981 ( pretty sure of the date ) the FAA issued an advisory. That advisory was in effect until this year.
I hard of 1981 advisory after a few close calls by nuts. The first time I had hard of a nut using RC was back in 1978 in San Diego 4 days later flight 182 crash with 172. I never saw any news on the RC nut I was only told by FBO on San Diego airport. There was nut in 1980 that I told on this group .

Dave
Aug 15, 2019, 12:23 AM
Drone Pilot (Trainee)
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithdoor
It is sad day.
I am great full we can still fly.
There has a limit of 500 feet since be for 1960's but did here any ever being sited.
Odds are no one will sited flying at any RC field.
As long as no one uses tech for checking altitude then just say "it look like I was under 400 feet"

Dave
It's worth pointing out that 500' is the altitude GA and other piloted aircraft generally must stay above.

If drones and other pesky stuff stay below 400', that leaves a nice 100' buffer. I think of it as a safety feature. There are some who feel it's an unkind limitation. Personally, I like to keep the possibility of bare-knuckle decision-making pretty limited.
Aug 15, 2019, 01:46 AM
Registered User
smithdoor's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlehman56
It's worth pointing out that 500' is the altitude GA and other piloted aircraft generally must stay above.

If drones and other pesky stuff stay below 400', that leaves a nice 100' buffer. I think of it as a safety feature. There are some who feel it's an unkind limitation. Personally, I like to keep the possibility of bare-knuckle decision-making pretty limited.
To fly above 400 feet would need a permit
So full aircraft would stay above a given altitude.

Dave
Aug 15, 2019, 04:26 AM
Registered User
....
Last edited by NorfolkSouthern; Aug 15, 2019 at 09:04 AM.
Aug 15, 2019, 09:47 AM
Registered User
smithdoor's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorfolkSouthern
....
I think what the FAA is looking at mid air.
This photo of 727 flight 182 hitting a student pilot 172 that was in the flight path.

I may same veiw as most but Friday be for the crash I was on that flight. You never forget that you missed just by days.

But can not seeing a balsa wood model causing a crash. I have never hard of model plane hitting a airliner.

Dave
Aug 15, 2019, 09:12 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffS
I think it is important that R/C fliers accept that the current regulations are not going to "go away" and start looking forward for ways to work with the system to 1) modify the most onerous regulations, and 2) find ways to use the provided tools (waivers, TFRs, LOAs, etc.)
R/C fliers need to get real, to accept that current regulations are not going to go away, and that they are going to get worse. Even if you can fly legally within the regs now, the regs will get tighter until you cannot. As the saying goes, the FAA isn't happy until you're not happy.

Waiver processes are for _organizations_ with a relationship with the FAA, not for individuals; if you're Just Some Guy without so much as a pilot's license, a waiver is not a process for you. And at the moment waivers can only be granted to part 107 pilots, not recreational.

In any case, unless you think you can schedule every flight weeks to months in advance, waivers are too heavyweight; they might work for something like Nationals but presumably even the participants there fly at other times outside the event.

As for LOAs, that requires you control a fixed site. Again, maybe OK for clubs, for individuals it's just not going to work. Even if you've got 40 acres behind your house, the FAA is not going to make letting you fly your toy airplane a priority. Though if you get their attention, they may make fining you a priority.

If you want to fly above 400' in the near future, you're going to have to raise the Jolly Roger. Expect this ceiling to be lowered. Expect speed restrictions. Expect daytime flying restrictions. Those are inevitable. Then there's going to be RemoteID, an electronic traffic cop whose job it is to rat you out to the FAA so they can issue an automated civil infraction. After that, who knows? Equipment certification requirements, maybe.

tl;dr: forget trying to follow the regs, it's an exercise in futility. Accept you'll be a lawbreaker.
Aug 16, 2019, 09:06 AM
Registered User
smithdoor's Avatar
I agree with your statement " accept that current regulations are not going to go away, and that they are going to get worse.

To me the new laws are just new challenge to fly.
So worry about contests over sea.
The FAA is the leader and what see in the USA will be in rest of world.

The biggest challenge we have is getting the FAA to see balsa wood RC model is not same as four blade drone. I know some will want the newer plastic planes to same as balsa planes
They are not same as simple put in Hollywood they balsa chairs to hit a actors

Dave


Quote:
Originally Posted by nybbler
R/C fliers need to get real, to accept that current regulations are not going to go away, and that they are going to get worse.

If you want to fly above 400' in the near future, you're going to have to raise the Jolly Roger. Expect this ceiling to be lowered. Expect speed restrictions. Expect daytime flying restrictions. Those are inevitable. Then there's going to be RemoteID, an electronic traffic cop whose job it is to rat you out to the FAA so they can issue an automated civil infraction. After that, who knows? Equipment certification requirements, maybe.

tl;dr: forget trying to follow the regs, it's an exercise in futility. Accept you'll be a lawbreaker.
Aug 16, 2019, 09:53 AM
Registered User
FAA keeps saying "community based organizations.". It just hit me that they are not saying National Based Organization. If I had the land, a bunch of people who like to fly and a few rules. Maybe charge dues to pay for insurance. The AMA is really not needed and may not be as important as they think.
Aug 16, 2019, 05:09 PM
Registered User
GeoffS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by longone
FAA keeps saying "community based organizations.". It just hit me that they are not saying National Based Organization. If I had the land, a bunch of people who like to fly and a few rules. Maybe charge dues to pay for insurance. The AMA is really not needed and may not be as important as they think.
I'm sure (I hope?) the AMA is not the only CBO that gets certified.

I would be surprised if one or more quad-copter racing organizations apply.

The law pretty clearly lays out the prerequisites for an organization to be considered for CBO status.
Probably the two biggest hurdles are getting 501(c)(3) status and coming up with a satisfactory "comprehensive set of safety guidelines for all aspects of model aviation".

Here's the relevant section:
(h) Community-based Organization Defined.-In this section, the term "community-based organization" means a membership-based association entity that-
(1) is described in section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986;

(2) is exempt from tax under section 501(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986;

(3) the mission of which is demonstrably the furtherance of model aviation;

(4) provides a comprehensive set of safety guidelines for all aspects of model aviation addressing the assembly and operation of model aircraft and that emphasize safe aeromodelling operations within the national airspace system and the protection and safety of individuals and property on the ground, and may provide a comprehensive set of safety rules and programming for the operation of unmanned aircraft that have the advanced flight capabilities enabling active, sustained, and controlled navigation of the aircraft beyond visual line of sight of the operator;

(5) provides programming and support for any local charter organizations, affiliates, or clubs; and

(6) provides assistance and support in the development and operation of locally designated model aircraft flying sites.


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