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Oct 08, 2019, 07:58 PM
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I am going by our own observations, we did testing at our FSS contests before we implemented it at Tangerine, now mixed launch is our standard TD format, launch height is pretty even, there are pros and cons to each launch method, we made it completely up to the pilot to choose either, and be able to mix and match during the contest! A built up or foamie has a huge disadvantage to the latest and greatest composite ship, the idea is folks who only fly electrics can come out and join in the fun, and quite possibly win something!
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Oct 08, 2019, 08:00 PM
2.1.9 Forever
Miami Mike's Avatar
I think it's becoming more and more accepted, at least here in Florida, that a level playing field for winch-launched vs. electric-powered sailplanes will never be possible, but these days I don't think anyone really cares. If you're flying at a disadvantage and you win then you have more to brag about, and if you lose, you have an excuse. Either way, you have a good time!
Oct 08, 2019, 08:29 PM
AECS USN RET. P3 FE
allanp's Avatar
JMHO
But I think the "no dork" landing tapes have done more to level the field than anything. Face it, at "Tangerine" you're always flying against 2-3 F3J Nat'l team members so the odds are always against you. So fly to beat the other electrics or Gray cup entrants. There will probably be just as many Elec planes as winch launched planes anyway.

Having said that Jason Cole did win an FSS contest on this very field with a elec launched plane earlier this year (and the "big boys" were entered)
Oct 11, 2019, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Mike
I think it's becoming more and more accepted, at least here in Florida, that a level playing field for winch-launched vs. electric-powered sailplanes will never be possible, but these days I don't think anyone really cares. If you're flying at a disadvantage and you win then you have more to brag about, and if you lose, you have an excuse. Either way, you have a good time!
I agree that having a good time and flying with friends and perhaps meeting new flying buddies, is the major reason to attend contests. But it is a contest with score keeping; part of the fun. Early in mixed launch, they seemed to be winch launch contests that allowed electrics, often begrudgingly. The mixed launch contest I just ran had more electrics than winch launch. A bit tongue in cheek, I told the guys to think of the format as an ALES contest that is allowing winch launched planes. The tests and data that "glider Jim" gathered should make reasonably equal launch heights easier to obtain. It's easy enough to measure out winch lines. The data shows that if you run 400 feet of winch line that should equal 150 meter e-cutoff. Run 550' and it should be 200 meter cutoff. That starts launch height reasonably equal. In the past it seemed people would look up and say "launch looks about equal", now there's real data.

I get the notion that built ups and foamies are at a disadvantage, but comparing high end models, they should start at the same height. At our contest with 15 guys we set out 400' lines. 1st and 2nd, taken by winch launch guys, I placed third with a Explorer electric. We had great weather, and for the most part, times were at or near 10 minutes. I'm pointing this out with the hope that others will use the data that Jim gathered to try to level the launch height.

This is just my observation, I admire and respect anyone running a contest. Not trying to be a jerk. Having said that I don't want to try to adjust family plans and travel a long way and pay for hotel nights to be in a contest that has 1/2 day of ALES and mixed launch with a significant disadvantage to electrics. Not sure I can make it, so I'm just giving you my .02.

You know your normal contest guys and what they want. I hope the contest goes well.
Last edited by Barry Andersen; Nov 04, 2019 at 02:52 PM.
Oct 11, 2019, 04:33 PM
2.1.9 Forever
Miami Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Andersen
The data shows that if you run 400 feet of winch line that should equal 150 meter e-cutoff. Run 550' and it should be 200 meter cutoff. That starts launch height reasonably equal. In the past it seemed people would look up and say "launch looks about equal", now there's real data.
I don't think that real data would apply very well to Kennyworld. The field has gentle hills that sometimes result in the winch line being dragged through the grass, and other times running from one hill peak to another so that the line is completely off the ground during launch. For that reason it's actually possible that a shorter line run can result in higher launches. We always leave that up to Raed because he's The Winch Master.
Oct 13, 2019, 10:06 AM
Registered User
I think the launch height discussion is missing a point. The electric glider can be much lighter than the winch gliders. Except for when the winds are high and the electric glider sink rate is better than the heavier winch gliders. The better fliers with electric gliders in F5J are making there times with low low heights. Yes on some days a few meters height make a difference as to the thermals.

It really comes down to how many minutes a glider will do in dead air from the height from launch to make it even as to launch height ... also how fast the glider can go between thermals. On some days the ability to go between thermals is more import than sink rate.

To me it's mainly the pilot and not electric or winch that determines who wins. I do not have a light wt electric so if one want to allow me to set my limiter to higher height I do not have not problem with that. Today my lightest glider is about 65 oz. Before I totaled it flying the wrong glider and rebuilt it, it weighted 50 oz. What a big difference 15 oz makes. Really to much paint was the big weight addition. The repair was only about 5 ozs but the wing looked bad and experiment with different paint was not good idea. To much trouble to sand it off the paint. I thought about sanding off the paint after the paint faded bad in one summer.

I'm planning to go to the event if my RV fuel problem is resolved. Just got back from trip and I had a few gas leaks and I'm lucky no fires ... old rubber fuel line and a problem I do not understand. I even called a guy who has a shop to work on these old RV's and he had no idea as to how the problem could occur. He agreed with me that there is no way the problem could occur unless a previous owner hooked up something bad wrong.

It's a long trip and allows me to visit my sister after the event for Thanksgiving after the event.

Hope to see everybody there and lets have a good time.

Art
Oct 13, 2019, 12:40 PM
Scale Aircraft = Scale Crators
mikejr83's Avatar
Wow Art! Glad you caught that without incident. Looking forward to flying with you again.
Oct 13, 2019, 08:33 PM
W.F.G.D
jbitz's Avatar
I'll be there all three days, providing I can keep a plane in on piece this time.

John Bitzberger
Oct 15, 2019, 04:36 PM
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Guess ill go to this one
Oct 17, 2019, 08:57 PM
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In for three days.

Ray Hughes
Oct 29, 2019, 01:01 PM
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Crashbound's Avatar
A long shot but just in case.

Someone tell me about the camping on site. What facilities, if any, are available?
Oct 29, 2019, 01:11 PM
AECS USN RET. P3 FE
allanp's Avatar
First come first serve on the hook-ups (2)
Restroom available 24/7 in the barn/workshop (people have been known to throw air mattress's on the shop floor and sleep there)
5-6 of us will be tent camping and 3-4 travel trailers
Oct 29, 2019, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashbound
A long shot but just in case.

Someone tell me about the camping on site. What facilities, if any, are available?
Camping is first come first serve, there are two full hook spots for $40/ night, plenty of room under the shade trees for tent camping at $10/ night, water and electric is available at the barn, and there is bathroom in the barn, no shower though.
There are three bedrooms available to rent in the house for about $130 per night each. Camping and room fees go to Kenny’s family.
Raed
Oct 29, 2019, 01:25 PM
AECS USN RET. P3 FE
allanp's Avatar

Shop/Barn on the right


View of the camping area and a shot from the field looking in
Oct 29, 2019, 01:36 PM
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Crashbound's Avatar
Well last weekend I said no way. Now, maybe so. This is a possibility.

Can you guys guarantee no wind?


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