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Jul 17, 2019, 10:57 AM
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New Study Confirms EVs Considerably Worse For Climate Than Diesel Cars


Electric Car-Owners Shocked: New Study Confirms EVs Considerably Worse For Climate Than Diesel Cars

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...te-diesel-cars

The Brussel Times reports that a new German study exposes how electric vehicles will hardly decrease CO2 emissions in Europe over the coming years, as the introduction of electric vehicles won't lead to a reduction in CO2 emissions from highway traffic.

According to the study directed by Christoph Buchal of the University of Cologne, published by the Ifo Institute in Munich last week, electric vehicles have "significantly higher CO2 emissions than diesel cars." That is due to the significant amount of energy used in the mining and processing of lithium, cobalt, and manganese, which are critical raw materials for the production of electric car batteries.

A battery pack for a Tesla Model 3 pollutes the climate with 11 to 15 tonnes of CO2. Each battery pack has a lifespan of approximately ten years and total mileage of 94,000, would mean 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometer (116 to 156 grams of CO2 per mile), Buchal said. Add to this the CO2 emissions of the electricity from powerplants that power such vehicles, and the actual Tesla emissions could be between 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometer (249 and 289 grams of CO2 per mile).

German researchers criticized the fact that EU legislation classifies electric cars as zero-emission cars; they call it a deception because electric cars, like the Model 3, with all the factors, included, produce more emissions than diesel vehicles by Mercedes.

They further wrote that the EU target of 59 grams of CO2 per kilometer by 2030 is "technically unrealistic."
Jul 17, 2019, 11:01 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
Rare Earth Minerals Turn Villages to Ruins (4 min 9 sec)
Jul 17, 2019, 12:09 PM
globemaster
nicoyenny's Avatar

Meanwhile, I enjoy driving my 2 EV's ...
Jul 17, 2019, 12:37 PM
Alarm Bells Softening!
Big Foot 48's Avatar
But, but, but is the author a published climate scientist because if he ain't then he's obviously wrong!
Jul 17, 2019, 01:28 PM
KK4NOP
Mike Freas's Avatar
Thread fail. Try again.

https://electrek.co/2019/04/22/study...esel-debunked/
Jul 17, 2019, 01:31 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Freas
I was gonna say, and I hadn't even read that... the OP study is pure BS. Being from Zerohedge is immediate grounds for extreme suspicion if not outright rejection. Zerohedge makes Fox News look reasonable.
Jul 17, 2019, 02:26 PM
Alarm Bells Softening!
Big Foot 48's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyerjohn
I was gonna say, and I hadn't even read that... the OP study is pure BS. Being from Zerohedge is immediate grounds for extreme suspicion if not outright rejection. Zerohedge makes Fox News look reasonable.
Did anyone think a liberal site would dare to report this? The New Zork Times? CNN? Actual source: https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-ne...n-study-shows/
Jul 17, 2019, 02:54 PM
turn, turn, turn.
They are entitled to their industrial revolution.
Jul 17, 2019, 03:04 PM
KK4NOP
Mike Freas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot 48
Did anyone think a liberal site would dare to report this? The New Zork Times? CNN? Actual source: https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-ne...n-study-shows/
The study is simply not true. Stop posting FUD and do your own research.
Jul 17, 2019, 03:10 PM
Alarm Bells Softening!
Big Foot 48's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Freas
The study is simply not true. Stop posting FUD and do your own research.
I didn't post it.
Jul 17, 2019, 03:11 PM
DS JUNKY
Total BS. Disproven by basic analysis.

Let's use the figures they used. 11-15 tons of Co2 for the production of a long range Model 3 battery.

They gave it a mere 10 year lifespan. First I wouldn't look at years I would look at miles. At a typical 12,000 miles per year that is at least 120,000 miles. But given what we have seen in 8 year old Teslas and the results of Tesla taxi service the realistic lifespan of these batteries is at least 200,000 miles but probably closer to 300,000+ miles. EV's need no where need the maintenance of an ICE and have much higher reliability and thus are going stay on the road for long periods of time.

That's before the batteries are re-purposed for Energy grid usage which is already happening and is going to continue to happen. It's a no brainier and it will save massive amounts in lost energy running peaker plants to cover peak demands and also smooth transition to
renewable resources which have fluctuations in production. Those batteries can serve out another 10+ years in that application (but we'll just completely ignore that). We'll also ignore that likely a process will be developed to salvage those precious materials for reuse.

1 gallon of diesel directly produces about 22 lbs of Co2 in combustion. However another 5-6lbs of Co2 are produced in the mining, transport, refining etc. So roughly 28 pounds of CO2 pre gallon of diesel consumed. A very efficient hybrid diesel that gets 60mpg will burn 3333 gallons over 200K and 5000 gallons over 300K. That's 47 tons at 200K miles and 70 tons at 300k miles. That's already 4-6 times more than the Tesla battery pack before the battery is re-purposed. That also assumes someone will own a diesel ICE vehicle to 300K (not likely given how much maintenance and life cycle issues will show up at that point). So likely you'll need to produce TWO ICE vehicles to cover the life span of a single well built EV.

Of course that excludes electricity related C02 emissions but that is going to vary greatly. You have countries like France where 70% of the energy already comes from Nuclear and currently renewable sources and advances in Nuclear tech are going to slowly asymptote electric power related Co2 emissions towards 0 in the next 50 years. Roof top solar is becoming so cheap it's going to become ubiquitous everywhere in the next 10-20 years. It's already mandatory building code in California. Even modern fossil fuel power plants are well over 50% thermally efficient. Even if fueled by 100% fossil fuel (not going to happen anywhere in the future) in a modern power plant the total carbon footprint will STILL be less.

Don't forget that batteries are constantly being optimized for less precious metals and energy resources and especially Co2 footprint. Giggafactory 1 for example will be fully powered by onsite renewables.

And lastly, lets not forget public health. Diesel and gasoline produces a variety of emissions not just Co2 and these have a serious public health impact. This is especially compounded when you are mere feet away from exhaust pipe emissions in urban areas vs the more diffused environment of power plants and mining.
Jul 17, 2019, 03:13 PM
The QuadFather
propflux01's Avatar
Quote:
And let’s not forget the German auto industry’s recent experience with under-reporting diesel emissions, which resulted in thousands of deaths and billions in fines.
Fines, yes. But “thousands of deaths”?
Jul 17, 2019, 05:39 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z06kal
Total BS. Disproven by basic analysis.

Let's use the figures they used. 11-15 tons of Co2 for the production of a long range Model 3 battery.

They gave it a mere 10 year lifespan. First I wouldn't look at years I would look at miles. At a typical 12,000 miles per year that is at least 120,000 miles. But given what we have seen in 8 year old Teslas and the results of Tesla taxi service the realistic lifespan of these batteries is at least 200,000 miles but probably closer to 300,000+ miles. EV's need no where need the maintenance of an ICE and have much higher reliability and thus are going stay on the road for long periods of time.

That's before the batteries are re-purposed for Energy grid usage which is already happening and is going to continue to happen. It's a no brainier and it will save massive amounts in lost energy running peaker plants to cover peak demands and also smooth transition to
renewable resources which have fluctuations in production. Those batteries can serve out another 10+ years in that application (but we'll just completely ignore that). We'll also ignore that likely a process will be developed to salvage those precious materials for reuse.

1 gallon of diesel directly produces about 22 lbs of Co2 in combustion. However another 5-6lbs of Co2 are produced in the mining, transport, refining etc. So roughly 28 pounds of CO2 pre gallon of diesel consumed. A very efficient hybrid diesel that gets 60mpg will burn 3333 gallons over 200K and 5000 gallons over 300K. That's 47 tons at 200K miles and 70 tons at 300k miles. That's already 4-6 times more than the Tesla battery pack before the battery is re-purposed. That also assumes someone will own a diesel ICE vehicle to 300K (not likely given how much maintenance and life cycle issues will show up at that point). So likely you'll need to produce TWO ICE vehicles to cover the life span of a single well built EV.

Of course that excludes electricity related C02 emissions but that is going to vary greatly. You have countries like France where 70% of the energy already comes from Nuclear and currently renewable sources and advances in Nuclear tech are going to slowly asymptote electric power related Co2 emissions towards 0 in the next 50 years. Roof top solar is becoming so cheap it's going to become ubiquitous everywhere in the next 10-20 years. It's already mandatory building code in California. Even modern fossil fuel power plants are well over 50% thermally efficient. Even if fueled by 100% fossil fuel (not going to happen anywhere in the future) in a modern power plant the total carbon footprint will STILL be less.

Don't forget that batteries are constantly being optimized for less precious metals and energy resources and especially Co2 footprint. Giggafactory 1 for example will be fully powered by onsite renewables.

And lastly, lets not forget public health. Diesel and gasoline produces a variety of emissions not just Co2 and these have a serious public health impact. This is especially compounded when you are mere feet away from exhaust pipe emissions in urban areas vs the more diffused environment of power plants and mining.
Putting reasonable facts and arguments out there doesn't work with these bought and paid for folks down here (think Russian troll factory )
Jul 17, 2019, 06:56 PM
Registered User
Peacemakr40's Avatar
What I find odd is the claims. Some of the diesel trucks we have in our fleets have better quality exhaust emissions that the ambient air. they are in fact cleaning the air. Granted, these are brand new vehicles and over time the emission systems will break down and give off more environmentally unhealthy byproducts. EVs on the other hand are still in their infancy so we haven't seen what they'll do in 10, 20 or 50 years. Guess we'll have to wait.
Jul 17, 2019, 07:08 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot 48
Did anyone think a liberal site would dare to report this? The New Zork Times? CNN? Actual source: https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-ne...n-study-shows/
Good point. No they wouldn't. Because it's complete and total BS bought and paid for by the fossil fuel interests.


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