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Aug 17, 2019, 10:27 AM
DavidsPlanes
doxilia's Avatar
Greg,

like Ken mentioned, it's not as bad as it sounds. It's hard to tell from the pictures what exactly happened but if you have runs and blisters in the clear, then the guys who shot it probably used a bad clear product (possibly incompatible to a certain degree) and/or didn't know how to shoot the product properly.

I had a situation very similar to yours on a Tipo that I had painted in lacquer and was very pleased with the paint job. I had wet sanded it all down and it was a pretty light job once it was ready for clear. I then did exactly what I mention above in the final stage. I used a sh*&%$! clear product (I should have known better) and the whole thing yellowed on me and looked awful. The clear actually went on fine (surprisingly given the product) but my crisp white now looked like it was a tint of "sick". After two weeks of (mostly) masking and painting, you can imagine how I felt about the situation (not to mention the model was being built for someone else).

Lesson learned? Never ever skimp on the clear AND always use a catalyzed acrylic urethane (automotive) product. This can be bought in a rattle can and sprays on with no less quality than if one uses the same product out of a gun. With the availability of products like SprayMax, I'm frankly not sure whether using a gun is more or less convenient. All I'd say is that if you don't have a spray gun, no problem. Actually applying the paint witbout a gun is more of a problem if that. The SprayMax, when applied properly (per directions), will yield amazing results and cure (in a dust free warn area) in 24 hours. 7 days before you hit it with some liquid car polish to remove the curing "wax" and leave the surface hard, glossy and impervious to UV and fuel.

Anyway, the above sounds more like a product plug than a solution to your problem but I'd consider it part of the solution. Wet sand back the finish applied being careful not to cut into the paint itself. Assuming they shot it with sufficient clear (the runs would lead you to think so), you can sand all the problem areas out possibly also removing any dust particles locked in with the clear. After a thorough cleaning (with alcohol since the blend of paint on the model sounds like it may not entirely be known) and tack cloth pass to insure the surface is clean, you can shoot the clear yourself. If you don't have practice with SM, try it out on scrap first so you can see how it behaves. Personally, I didn't even do this the first time I used it and just witnessed what's said in the directions in action while I (re) cleared the Tipo. After all was said and done, the model finally looked like it should have in the first place.

One incontrovertible caveat. Once you shoot the clear, you MUST have a way of moving the model without objects (or you) touching the surface in any way whatsoever. If you do, your'e toast. Back to square one (worse actually). For the fuse, the best system is to support it from the FW via a dowel on a jig of sorts. handling the model from this down on the front is the best solution I've found. The model can be hung from a hole in the dowel with some string. Better yet is to support the dowel so the model is left to cure horizontally. This will lessen the change of you having a down the fuse run. However, you shouldn't move the model until after an hour has passed from shooting the second flow coat (it only takes two coats to shoot SM - tack and flow). This time permits the flow coat to settle under gravity and achieve sufficient cure for it to not "shift".

Of course, another option is to not worry too much about the mistakes on this one, fly it, and avoid using the same guys next time!

David
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Aug 17, 2019, 11:10 AM
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Thread OP
Thanks for the kind words, I managed to take a couple of pictures of the unknown model to show you the worst part of the clear coating but it is obvious that the sprayer did not even use a tack cloth at all and my last words to him before I left yesterday were that I had cleaned the models (they were spotless) masked off the needed areas and that all they needed was a quick going over with a tack cloth before clear coating.

To be honest I am at a loss for words and cant imagine how he managed to do this (see picture)

Im sure that I can improve things but Im not really thinking straight at the moment
Aug 17, 2019, 01:51 PM
Registered User
I am viewing this from 3,500 miles away but it looks like debris blown onto the clear coat as it was drying. That might be OK, as there is likely a thin layer of clear underneath it. If the clear has not yet completely set you could try to pick these off with surgical tweezers. Then lightly wet sand and buff. If you try to sand over the debris your sand paper will carry it along and scratch things. Most paint shops should repaint and clear coat for you on their dime. Have a beer and worry about it next week. Very sorry to see this.... I feel your pain across the ocean!
Aug 17, 2019, 03:22 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Thanks for the suggestion, I tried it out as soon as I read it but the clear coat was put down more than 24 hrs ago and covers the debris completely and it will not pick off, I tried a v/sharp scalpel and while this would remove some, it left quite a bit behind.
I was thinking that I could try and get it as smooth as possible (some of the debris is about1mm high) and cover with a transfer of the God Apollo, this is what my dad would have done I think, especially as he named the model Apollo, its that or bite the bullet.

With a bit of fine wet and dry and some polish it might turn out ok, I will give it a go when Im in a better frame of mind, the rest of the model turned out quite good.
I will put it together tomorrow for a couple of pictures.
Aug 17, 2019, 04:31 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiliP

Ohh and before I forget, the model in the previous post is called the "Challenger" by Terry Westrop, some of you may of heard of his better known "Loaded Dice" design.

Thanks all.
Greg
Greg... sorry to see you got a bad rap from the clearcote guy. Hope yuo can find at least a reasonable solution. That plane that your father built does look like a Challenger alright, but I believe its not a Westrop design. Its by John Edmunds and Graeme Smith (full name Aussie Challenger). See attached.
Aug 17, 2019, 05:55 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by RC YEAGER
Greg... sorry to see you got a bad rap from the clearcote guy. Hope yuo can find at least a reasonable solution. That plane that your father built does look like a Challenger alright, but I believe its not a Westrop design. Its by John Edmunds and Graeme Smith (full name Aussie Challenger). See attached.
Thanks, I should be able to do something with them, the Curare is not so bad, just one bad run under the tail but it also has what looks like blisters in the clear coat in a few small areas it almost looks like he sprayed over moisture/water, I should be able to fix/hide these.

Its the unknown model we call the Apollo I really wanted to get right, dad built and flew most of the classic pattern ships over the years but this was his first ever complete classic build, he just never flew it ever, as he thought it was over weight, he guessed at about 9Lb .

I weighed it about three months ago and complete with motor, no radio gear I found it weighed just over 5 1/2 Lb as soon as I told him he wouldnt believe me so I had to show him it on the scales, he got all excited and asked if I would get it ready and fly it....he didnt have to ask twice. Going down to visit him tomorrow and take him out for lunch if he is fit enough, will bring his old Curare down for him to have look at and critique, I wont take the other one until I have it as good as I can possibly get it.

Looks like I did get the designer wrong...... it is a Challenger, just not by Terry, I blame my dads 91yr old memory.
Aug 17, 2019, 10:25 PM
DavidsPlanes
doxilia's Avatar
Greg,

I must admit, that is not a dust issue that could have been solved with a pass of a tack cloth. Thatís serious material on the surface. Only way this could be there is it was shot outside in the wind or there was some fan blowing dirt on to the model.

That aside, Iím not sure what kind of pros those guys are but I wouldn't go back there. The application of clear looks pretty bad and I can think of a half a dozen reasons why it went South. The first that comes to mind is a poor quality product.

But this wonít help to solve the problem. I agree with kdunlap, the shop should fix their mess. Problem is, they could actually make things worse yet.

Iím sorry I canít be more optimistic about the service you received. I do think the problem can be fixed though. Removing the clear as much as possible and re-shooting it properly.

David
Aug 19, 2019, 09:57 AM
Registered User
Roguedog's Avatar
It looks like he was spraying it too dry or it was too hot or psi was too high.

The overspray dried and then blew back onto the paint surface as another pass was made.

If i did that too someones plane I wouldnt charge him. Gawd it sickens me to see it as its so easy to aviod if your paying attention

Don't ever let that guy do another paint job for you. This is avoidable if you use the right psi for the spray gun you are using, with the right fan width. and the right reducer.

I recently was online surfing automotive parts stores that sell paint and none of them included reducer for any of their user friendly paint products as far as Urethane or acrylic, just the paint and hardener.

That floored me so i looked at the TDS and reducer wasnt even mentioned in the directions for mixing. I did a little digging on one sight and found that they did have reducers available but nothing listed in the ad saying that a reducer was needed.

Did find one site that said the reducer was already included in the paint. If true then their cheating their customers because that means less paint in the can.

I've actually had the exact same thing happen to me when the industry went from siphon feed guns to HVLP.

About Reducers they allow that paint to flow out to a flat surface before the paint flashes. I watch as many as the custom car shows on tv as i can stand and it always floors me when they talk about color sanding to the remove orange peal on color coats or finish coats. This does not happen when GM, Ford, Toyota, Nissan etc paint their newly manufactured cars. Could u imagine a whole assembly line of sanders, buffers, and polishers going over ever car or truck coming off the spray paint line. That's a reducers job, to get the paint to lay down flat so u get a nice glossy surface or at least a uniform flat surface.

Orange peal happens because the painter doesn't know what hes doing, isn't paying attention, or both?
Last edited by Roguedog; Aug 19, 2019 at 10:18 AM.
Aug 19, 2019, 10:12 AM
Registered User
Roguedog's Avatar
If u decide to remove the overspary us a sanding block but wait a couple of weeks before u do it.

The reason i mentioned the parts store is if the guy that did the paint job followed those kind of paint products TDS then he probably had spray problems from the very first layer of piant and figured he could cover it by laying on more coats.

Did you weigh the planes before and after?

At least he didn't damage them as far as the structure.

Good thing about paint screwups is they're fixable. Just have to wait for a good cure before attempting the repair.
Aug 19, 2019, 08:10 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Thanks for all the kind words all, now that I have had time to calm down and think things through I have a plan of action.
Following the suggestions given here it will take me at least a week before I can do anything to fix the mess and for materials to arrive.
I took the Curare down to show dad on Sunday, luckily he did not spot any of the faults and thought it looked great.

I will update when I have fixed things up as best I can.
Sep 08, 2019, 11:35 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
Well the Curare is finished, all I need do is fire her up and go fly, slight issue she is a porker, I knew it was heavy before when I first picked it up I dont know what it weighed before as I didnt weigh it but it felt real heavy. I just weighed her with all the gear in minus fuel and she is 8lb 4oz which is around what I expected so I am not too disappointed.

The unknown model, I did weigh before the clear coat and she was around 5.5 Lbs with motor but no radio etc. I cant weigh her yet as I have just re done the clear coat on the nose section myself but I am hopeful she will be a lot lighter than the curare, I am quite pleased with the results.

Here are a couple of photos of the progress so far and clearing out dads house yesterday we found this little gem, a A3 sized signed poster, (bear in mind dad is 91 now and might be wrong) he said ooh I think that was Mexico, Acapulco in the early eighty's he remembered getting the poster from Hanno himself at Sandown park not long after that.

He must have studied the picture for at least an hour or so, I asked him why and its not often a model name escapes him but he was bugged that he could not name the blue model in the background, so if you recognize it please let me know.
Sep 08, 2019, 12:30 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiliP
Well the Curare is finished, all I need do is fire her up and go fly, slight issue she is a porker, I knew it was heavy before when I first picked it up I dont know what it weighed before as I didnt weigh it but it felt real heavy. I just weighed her with all the gear in minus fuel and she is 8lb 4oz which is around what I expected so I am not too disappointed.

The unknown model, I did weigh before the clear coat and she was around 5.5 Lbs with motor but no radio etc. I cant weigh her yet as I have just re done the clear coat on the nose section myself but I am hopeful she will be a lot lighter than the curare, I am quite pleased with the results.

Here are a couple of photos of the progress so far and clearing out dads house yesterday we found this little gem, a A3 sized signed poster, (bear in mind dad is 91 now and might be wrong) he said ooh I think that was Mexico, Acapulco in the early eighty's he remembered getting the poster from Hanno himself at Sandown park not long after that.

He must have studied the picture for at least an hour or so, I asked him why and its not often a model name escapes him but he was bugged that he could not name the blue model in the background, so if you recognize it please let me know.
8 1/4 pound for a Hanno ballistic plane is not a bad weight. Hard to tell the blue model in the back ground. Looked a bit like the Acro Knight by Isao Matsui but I am almost certain it was not. Isao Matsui was not in the international competition scene by the 80's. There were quite a few planes with that canopy line. The tell will be in the shape of the tail feathers but cannot see it.
Sep 10, 2019, 08:59 AM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by doxilia
Greg,

the guys who shot it probably used a bad clear product (possibly incompatible to a certain degree) and/or didn't know how to shoot the product properly.
I looks like the guy used two different products, the Curare took almost four weeks to cure, the unknown model was set within a week.

Quote:
Lesson learned? Never ever skimp on the clear AND always use a catalyzed acrylic urethane (automotive) product. This can be bought in a rattle can and sprays on with no less quality than if one uses the same product out of a gun. With the availability of products like SprayMax, I'm frankly not sure whether using a gun is more or less convenient. All I'd say is that if you don't have a spray gun, no problem. Actually applying the paint witbout a gun is more of a problem if that. The SprayMax, when applied properly (per directions), will yield amazing results and cure (in a dust free warn area) in 24 hours. 7 days before you hit it with some liquid car polish to remove the curing "wax" and leave the surface hard, glossy and impervious to UV and fuel.
I stressed to the sprayer that it had to be a 2k clear but I have my doubts with the Curare. I had intended to to use the SprayMax 2k like you advised, I have read good reports on it, I did use it for the fix and it is a far better clear than the ones used by the spray guy and was quite easy to apply but there was a lot left over. Out of interest how many cans would you recommend for a 60 size model?

Quote:
One incontrovertible caveat. Once you shoot the clear, you MUST have a way of moving the model without objects (or you) touching the surface in any way whatsoever. If you do, your'e toast. Back to square one (worse actually). For the fuse, the best system is to support it from the FW via a dowel on a jig of sorts. handling the model from this down on the front is the best solution I've found. The model can be hung from a hole in the dowel with some string. Better yet is to support the dowel so the model is left to cure horizontally. This will lessen the change of you having a down the fuse run. However, you shouldn't move the model until after an hour has passed from shooting the second flow coat (it only takes two coats to shoot SM - tack and flow). This time permits the flow coat to settle under gravity and achieve sufficient cure for it to not "shift".
I used the spray shop because I do not have a suitable area and was concerned with the safety aspects of using 2k, I had explained most of the above advise to him as diplomatically as possible but he obviously didn't listen or care.

Quote:
Of course, another option is to not worry too much about the mistakes on this one, fly it, and avoid using the same guys next time!
David
When I stared back in the hobby my father said that his one regret was spending to much time striving for a really good finish, his advise to me was just built as best you can and dont worry how it looks, its how it flies that counts and you cant see any faults from the ground.

One of the reasons for rescuing these models was not just sentimental but also practice for the Electric Curare I am in the process of building
One day I will get this Quote thingy right
Last edited by ChiliP; Sep 10, 2019 at 03:12 PM. Reason: Following Davids advise (again)
Sep 10, 2019, 02:11 PM
DavidsPlanes
doxilia's Avatar
Greg,

Just remove the forward slash at the BEGINNING of the quotes (itís only for closing) and your post will be easier to read.

David
Sep 10, 2019, 03:20 PM
Registered User
Thread OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by doxilia
Greg,

Just remove the forward slash at the BEGINNING of the quotes (itís only for closing) and your post will be easier to read.

David
Thanks, now done. I should add one other observation with regards the SprayMax clear, while it is a superior product I can see that the prep work will have to be much better should I use the Spraymax again, it shows up defects in the paint finish much more than whatever clear coat the spray painter used but it is a much better clear coat.


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