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Jun 19, 2019, 09:52 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
It is also possible that we have created so many classes that other than FAI ones that we won't ever get enough critical mass for the ARFs to takeover. That would be OK too. I'm working on a new class that I'm calling Holistic Electric Altitude Derived Sailplanes. I'll be starting a season points series for this event too.



Ryan
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Jun 19, 2019, 09:54 AM
Sagitta Fanboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Mike
If the concern is that man-on-man is too complicated then TALES is ten times worse.

Also, It doesn't help promotion of TALES that all the links to http://gdshs.org/tales-event-rules.htm, including yours, are broken because the URL was changed to https://www.gdshs.org/tales_rules.html.
Agreed, TALES combines all the complexity of MoM and F3K, and adds it's own additional bits.

And it doesn't help that the launch limits for TALES don't match up to ALES standard (they're lower and shorter), so different hardware is required, driving up the cost to the user.

TALES also allows really high dollar ships, it'll be hard to beat a Snipe 2e or any electric-converted DLG in TALES. It's basically purpose-designed for e-conversions of DLG's for guys who can't throw anymore rather than as anything similar to F3-RES as an easy-entry contest type.
Jun 19, 2019, 10:14 AM
Registered User
Better foamy gliders at low price will help bring in new fliers to gliders. Maybe a lighted Radian seems like a bad idea to me but if it brings in one flier who ends up moving up to better planes then not a bad idea.

Just a thought

Clubs might look to having an open event that is for cheap ARF's hoping to bring in new fliers Set a price limit for the glider and let anything fly that came within the price range. I might have $150 class and $250 class.

It would be a lot of work to get the word out.

Have a set up where the a higher performance can be flown using a buddy box set up.

Art
Jun 19, 2019, 10:36 AM
Meerkats: Cuter than mere cats
Miami Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by old1104
Better foamy gliders at low price will help bring in new fliers to gliders. Maybe a lighted Radian seems like a bad idea to me but if it brings in one flier who ends up moving up to better planes then not a bad idea.
It's not unusual to see someone with a Radian fly it around the field at a moderate altitude with the motor running for the entire flight. It seems some folks just don't get it.
Jun 20, 2019, 07:24 PM
Hot Dawg Glider Pilot
schrederman's Avatar
I did not, and will not read this entire thread. But to the OP... Man - on - man scoring is really the only fair scoring process in my opinion. It used to really get me jumpin' mad when someone would sandbag, and then put up 3 flights at the end of a contest... and win. Timed rounds took care of some of that, but even with that, I always seemed to be timing for someone when the big air came through. Then came m-o-m... I've always done better in that format. The luck factor is mitigated as much as possible. You're all in the same air. You're the victim of your own choices and decisions. You're always flying against yourself and your flight group... and not circumstances or luck.

Granted, for a monthly club contest, with 8 - 12 competitors, it's a waste of time to try it. For anything bigger, in my humble opinion, it's the only way to go. It actually benefits the less competitive because they'll be flying against each other in subsequent rounds... and one of them is likely to win that round.

But the real problem is we're all ageing out of the hobby. Just a dozen years ago or so it was nothing to see 75 to 100 at TNT or SWC. We're now lucky to draw 35 at TNT and SWC no longer exists. The other problem is that we've splintered because of so many classes and diverse interests. No matter how you want to soar, these days, you can do it... string launch... electric launch... scale aero-tow... you name it. We're no longer congruent... sadly.

Darth NATSbound...
Jun 21, 2019, 08:32 AM
Registered User
GliderJim's Avatar
^^^ What he said.
Jun 21, 2019, 09:45 AM
Meerkats: Cuter than mere cats
Miami Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by schrederman
Man - on - man scoring is really the only fair scoring process in my opinion.

...

It actually benefits the less competitive because they'll be flying against each other in subsequent rounds... and one of them is likely to win that round.
I agree that regular man-on-man is much more fair than open winch, but that second sentence of yours that I quoted seems to imply that you're referring to seeded man-on-man. I don't think that's as fair as regular man-on-man where a complete flight matrix is randomly generated before the contest begins and the less competitive are not necessarily flying against each other in subsequent rounds.

And as I'm sure I stated earlier in this thread, I really dislike having to run around trying to find a timer as soon as the groups are announced or posted before each round.
Jun 21, 2019, 09:54 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Mike

And as I'm sure I stated earlier in this thread, I really dislike having to run around trying to find a timer as soon as the groups are announced or posted before each round.
I have the opposite experience. I find it easier to find timers at seeded MoM contests than random matrix contests.

Ryan
Jun 21, 2019, 10:08 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwoebke
I have the opposite experience. I find it easier to find timers at seeded MoM contests than random matrix contests.

Ryan
Thing is, you get the random matrix at the pilot's meeting, so before the 1st round, you need to set up timers and who to time for, in every round that you fly in.

For what it's worth... I think it is wise for the CD to assign a time to do that, right after the pilot's meeting before everyone breaks up.
Jun 21, 2019, 10:16 AM
Meerkats: Cuter than mere cats
Miami Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp
Thing is, you get the random matrix at the pilot's meeting, so before the 1st round, you need to set up timers and who to time for, in every round that you fly in.
That's not too hard. The first thing I do when I get a copy of the matrix is I circle all of the pilots in each round that could time for me, then I walk around and hunt for timers.

I might be CDing an ALES contest this fall, and if so it's highly probable that I'll offer the "team protect" option in the F3KScore software that you guided me to back in your post #32.
Jun 21, 2019, 10:31 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp
Thing is, you get the random matrix at the pilot's meeting, so before the 1st round, you need to set up timers and who to time for, in every round that you fly in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Mike
I might be CDing an ALES contest this fall, and if so it's highly probable that I'll offer the "team protect" option in the F3KScore software that you guided me to back in your post #32.
That works fairly well if you are a reasonably popular person. Or if you are in a club. But for newbies or folks who are not part of a group or undesirable folks like myself I have found it harder because everyone else is timing for everyone else already. Even at big contests like the Nats I have had to ask half a dozen or more people before finding a timer frequently. I don't mind because I have no shame. But I am pretty confident that the finding a timer thing is off-putting for many people who first try out soaring contesting.

With seeded MoM the seeding makes it so that the top pilots can't "pair off" and that tends to open up almost everyone. And when the contest becomes relatively stable you kind of know who is going to be in group A, B, C, etc. And my experience is that folks are more willing to time when asked because they know that the contest can shake up and then they might be scrambling for a timer. When the seeded MoM is organized on a big clip board system before the start of each round you can visually see what flight group you are in and then scan through the names a flight group or two away and look for people to ask to time for you.

This is my experience at least. And yes there is no perfect system. But I actually find it way easier to find a timer in seeded contests than random matrix contests.

Ryan
Jun 21, 2019, 10:59 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Yes Ryan. That's how it works. I have no shame either, but it has almost always been a real pain to find timers, no matter what... whether it be a random matrix or seeded or non seeded man on man.

I've been to 3 team protected contests, and it works great if you have a team member declared before the contest, and if that member shows up.

But Hey, there are always hurdles in a contest...I've promised to time for others but I've had to repair my plane in between rounds so they have had to find another timer, and that has worked both ways for me.
Jun 21, 2019, 11:03 AM
Meerkats: Cuter than mere cats
Miami Mike's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwoebke
Even at big contests like the Nats I have had to ask half a dozen or more people before finding a timer frequently.
I don't see how any system could affect that. It seems to me that no matter how or when a flight matrix is generated, nothing will make it any easier or harder for you to find a timer.

The "team protect" option appeals to me primarily because it allows me to have a timer whom I know and who knows me, and will guide me safely to the landing zone, knows the intervals when I want the time called out, knows to keep track of where I'm looking and therefore where he shouldn't stand, knows that I get really irritated when I hear "coming up on...", knows to tell me the exact time remaining when I ask instead of saying "don't worry about it", knows whether I value his advice or prefer that he shut up, knows that I don't want him to tell me stories or get into conversations with other people while I'm flying, and will not hesitate to protect me by jumping in front of a runaway plane.

Okay, that last one was a stretch, but I think you get the idea. You feel a lot safer with a timer you know than with a stranger.
Jun 21, 2019, 11:58 AM
The Mr. Rogers of RC soaring
rdwoebke's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Mike
knows that I get really irritated when I hear "coming up on...", knows to tell me the exact time remaining when I ask instead of saying "don't worry about it", knows whether I value his advice or prefer that he shut up, knows that I don't want him to tell me stories or get into conversations with other people while I'm flying
I think I have a new goal to go to a contest that you are at and time for you and do those annoying things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Mike
I don't see how any system could affect that. It seems to me that no matter how or when a flight matrix is generated, nothing will make it any easier or harder for you to find a timer.
My experience is that seeded is easier. That folks are more willing to time for randos like myself. I mentioned the big contest thing because interestingly even at random matrix contests with a lot of flight groups I still have found it more difficult to find timers than seeded contests.

Ryan
Jun 21, 2019, 12:03 PM
turn, turn, turn.
So my suggestion for a great contest is to have a random matrix team protected man on man with a clock that begins and ends the contest with no stopping whatsoever and a 3 man jury selected and strict adherence to the rules.

The idea is to attract serious contest pilots that will travel a great distance for a well run contest that promises a ton of flying.


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