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Jun 06, 2019, 02:56 AM
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[QUOTE=SeismicCWave;42019895]>>

I have to look into the Intruder a bit more. Always wanted to build one of those.


The Intruder has recently been downloaded to Outerzone, courtesy of Jim (Jpurcha). Makes for very interesting reading. Kirkland had most of it right.

You can also take a look at Ivan Kristensen's Saturm SE, which is a 1979, almost imperceptibly updated version of his 1974 design. The Saturn was my first ever 60 size pattern airplane and one that helped me improve my skills. A good airplane.
Last edited by RC YEAGER; Jun 06, 2019 at 03:38 AM. Reason: Typo
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Jun 06, 2019, 07:13 AM
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Hi Brad,
yeah, my bad. Especially since I grew up in New England, flew pattern there from '73 to '89 and knew all the pattern guys from that time. Really, after the El Tigre and the Banshee, not a lot of designs came from that area until Dean's Maya and George Asteris' Omen series. A lot of really good pattern fliers, though!
-Will
Jun 06, 2019, 09:06 AM
DavidsPlanes
doxilia's Avatar
Hansen,

I dropped you a line by email which has some info that might be of interest to you.

Since Hansen has no objections to the digression from the XLT theme:

Thanks guys for clarifying the Kristensen Saturn I had mentioned.

Among other aspects, I liked the enlarged jet like nose ring design of Colemans’s Cutlass. I also liked some aspects of Ivan’s Saturn including the design of the vertical which I found to be an “unfinished afterthought” on the Cutlass. As a result I ended up mating the two designs into a what could be called a Cutlass V2 (bad name). Might have to think of something better!

David
Jun 06, 2019, 11:42 AM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Thread OP
[QUOTE=RC YEAGER;42025183]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeismicCWave
>>

I have to look into the Intruder a bit more. Always wanted to build one of those.


The Intruder has recently been downloaded to Outerzone, courtesy of Jim (Jpurcha). Makes for very interesting reading. Kirkland had most of it right.

You can also take a look at Ivan Kristensen's Saturm SE, which is a 1979, almost imperceptibly updated version of his 1974 design. The Saturn was my first ever 60 size pattern airplane and one that helped me improve my skills. A good airplane.
I will definitely check into the Intruder some more. Maybe a short kit in the near future.
Jun 06, 2019, 11:44 AM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Thread OP
>>I dropped you a line by email which has some info that might be of interest to you.<<

Thanks David.

>>Since Hansen has no objections to the digression from the XLT theme:<<

I actually think the off topic discussion on various pattern plane designs is more interesting.
Jun 06, 2019, 12:29 PM
Registered User
jpurcha's Avatar
I picked up the plans from a RCU member quite a few years back. He mailed the plans to my hotel in Houston. They were at the desk when I walked through the door at the Extended Stay Hotel. I added the scale to the drawing and then scanned them. My scanned plans have been floating on the internet for a while. I decided to add these to Outerzone. They are very good at cleaning up scans.

Picked up a NIB A6 kit on RCG classified, which ended being a short kit. Enough parts for fuselage and 1/4, but no ribs. I would prefer to build this as a foam wing. When I get flying again.
Too many kits starting to stash away. Need another life.


Jim

[QUOTE=RC YEAGER;42025183]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeismicCWave
>>

I have to look into the Intruder a bit more. Always wanted to build one of those.


The Intruder has recently been downloaded to Outerzone, courtesy of Jim (Jpurcha). Makes for very interesting reading. Kirkland had most of it right.

You can also take a look at Ivan Kristensen's Saturm SE, which is a 1979, almost imperceptibly updated version of his 1974 design. The Saturn was my first ever 60 size pattern airplane and one that helped me improve my skills. A good airplane.
Latest blog entry: MAAC Wings
Jun 06, 2019, 12:38 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Thread OP
[QUOTE=jpurcha;42028259]I picked up the plans from a RCU member quite a few years back. He mailed the plans to my hotel in Houston. They were at the desk when I walked through the door at the Extended Stay Hotel. I added the scale to the drawing and then scanned them. My scanned plans have been floating on the internet for a while. I decided to add these to Outerzone. They are very good at cleaning up scans.

Picked up a NIB A6 kit on RCG classified, which ended being a short kit. Enough parts for fuselage and 1/4, but no ribs. I would prefer to build this as a foam wing. When I get flying again.
Too many kits starting to stash away. Need another life.


Jim

Thanks Jim. I am going to Outerzone to look now.

Wow! One of the better description of airfoil by a non-engineer. Very easy for a layman like me to understand.

"Fifteen years of experimenting with airfoils and planforms has led me to believe that aerodynamic theories applicable to full-size planes have almost no place in model wing design. The scale-effect is so prevalent in a wing with even 750 square inches of area that airflow and reactions are more a result of thickness, high-point location, and leading edge shape, than of a specific curvature of the airfoil. A thick wing will fly slower, have a lower stall speed, but with a substantial loss of effectiveness prior to reaching the actual stall point, and will slow down quickly when power is reduced. A thin wing is fast, reluctant to slow down, and normally has a very sharply defined' stall point while remaining very responsive right up to the stall point. A wing of a given thickness, with a rounded and blunt leading edge, will have a lower stall point than the same wing with a sharper leading edge. Also, a wing with a reflex airfoil will have a considerably lower stall point than the same wing without the reflex. Using the 33 percent point as a reference for the high-point location on a given airfoil, that airfoil will stall at a higher speed if the high point is moved further to the rear, and at a lower speed if moved further forward. A tapered wing with a constant airfoil shape will experience tip stall at a higher speed than the stalling speed of the foot section due to the increase in scale-effect caused by the smaller tip section. These features of model airfoil reactions. are based on symmetrical airfoils, but would probably be mostly applicable to semi-symmetrical shapes also..."
Jun 06, 2019, 12:54 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Thread OP
After scrutinizing the plan for the A6 Intruder I realized why I never attempted to build one. The construction looked like one of those old Scientific kits. Take a block of balsa and sand/carve to shape!!! I looked at the top turtle deck and the cowl construction and cringe. I have to be a sculptor. I thought the Mustang X was bad. The exterior carving is not my issue. The interior carving to make the plane light can be daunting. I am not that good with a Dremel and cutting tool. I tend to cut too deep and carve too much out. Well maybe some day when I am adventurous. In the meantime there are a lot more pattern planes to build.

OTOH, the fiberglass kit from Leo is very tempting.
Jun 06, 2019, 12:57 PM
Registered User
I was already planning my response, but when I read your last comment, there it was. Leo... so... never mind
Jun 06, 2019, 01:13 PM
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SeismicCWave's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC YEAGER
I was already planning my response, but when I read your last comment, there it was. Leo... so... never mind
The big problem with a kit from Leo is my location. No one like to ship to the middle of the Pacific.

For that matter my friend sold me the XLT for a very very good price. However the shipping between two islands doubled the costs. So a kit from Leo, even if he is willing to ship to me via a freight forwarder, the cost will be prohibitive.
Jun 06, 2019, 01:28 PM
DavidsPlanes
doxilia's Avatar
Due to the increasing cost of materials and the lack of finesse in the concept of whittling a fuselage out of hunks of balsa, the 21st century has brought us modern stressed skin construction. Taking old classics and rendering their designs into an integrated, light and easy to build model has been great fun for me. As builders we all have our likes and dislikes but I think we all agree that it’s nice to build a model that doesn’t require a laser sharp eye or a series of templates to insure straightness and/or symmetry - something that’s needed when great amounts of wood need to be carved out and in!

It remains to cast the Intruder into such a re-design one day.

David
Jun 06, 2019, 01:34 PM
AMA 46133
SeismicCWave's Avatar
Thread OP
>>Due to the increasing cost of materials and the lack of finesse in the concept of whittling a fuselage out of hunks of balsa, the 21st century has brought us modern stressed skin construction. Taking old classics and rendering their designs into an integrated, light and easy to build model has been great fun for me. As builders we all have our likes and dislikes but I think we all agree that it’s nice to build a model that doesn’t require a laser sharp eye or a series of templates to insure straightness and/or symmetry - something that’s needed when great amounts of wood need to be carved out and in!<<

For me personally some carving is good as long as the carving is on the outside. Stressed skin is definitely lighter but it has to be done right. Otherwise there will be a lot of rippling on the skin from the formers. I guess a compromise of sort will be nice.
Jun 06, 2019, 02:28 PM
DavidsPlanes
doxilia's Avatar
I find that Mr. M. Kato has been the artisan in finding the correct balance in that regard. His plans and designs have been an inspiration and a great source of “instruction” to me.

That said, I’ve never had an issue with fuses rippling due to improper internal structure. I think the reason is that we don’t use paper thin wood in our classic builds. If using 3/32” sides in a smaller model, adding sufficient formers in a re-design is not problematic. I re-designed a Compensator 40 in such a fashion. In turtle deck skins, I once built a kit model that used 1/16” skins and wasn’t sufficiently supported but the end result was that the deck was fragile. However, once molded, the skins didn’t have the tendency to ripple. Since building that kit, I’ve always made a point of using either 2 mm or 3/32” skins in molded fuselage sections. Of course, another nice option, where appropriate, is to use 1/32” skins fully supported by foam core tunnels. I suppose CNC cut foam is in some regard the modern version of carving block balsa.

Basically, building fuses the way we have built framed-up wings for a long time is not a bad system. Naturally, adding strength where needed to withstand IC engine vibration.

David
Jun 06, 2019, 03:53 PM
Registered User
jpurcha's Avatar
Here's the blocks for the cowl and the deck from the kit I bought. The block for the deck is a "LOG". "Wide, thick and long" - .

Jim



Quote:
Originally Posted by SeismicCWave
After scrutinizing the plan for the A6 Intruder I realized why I never attempted to build one. The construction looked like one of those old Scientific kits. Take a block of balsa and sand/carve to shape!!! I looked at the top turtle deck and the cowl construction and cringe. I have to be a sculptor. I thought the Mustang X was bad. The exterior carving is not my issue. The interior carving to make the plane light can be daunting. I am not that good with a Dremel and cutting tool. I tend to cut too deep and carve too much out. Well maybe some day when I am adventurous. In the meantime there are a lot more pattern planes to build.

OTOH, the fiberglass kit from Leo is very tempting.
Latest blog entry: MAAC Wings
Jun 06, 2019, 04:24 PM
Registered User
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpurcha
Here's the blocks for the cowl and the deck from the kit I bought. The block for the deck is a "LOG". "Wide, thick and long" - .

Jim
Gasp! Maybe good adjectives if describing something else but definitely not good when describing balsa in a kit.


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