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May 17, 2019, 12:09 AM
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Discussion

Rules regarding FF


Hey guys,

I used to fly RC in the past but haven't been in the hobby for a long time. I want to do FF to fill in the gap but I'm not sure what the rules are for FF. Since RC parkfliers have banned from parks are FF airplanes banned too? Focusing on rubber powered planes.

From what I have gathered the usual rules are 3 min max flight time, around 30" max wingspan, and a certain wing area limit.
I want to actually fly my planes but don't want to travel all the way to the RC club to toss a plane for 3 min. If I could go to my local park then that would be a lot more fun to stroll out, toss it, watch it fly, then go home that would be ideal.

And how much space do the Guillows kits need typically?
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May 17, 2019, 12:53 AM
BOYCOTT SCAMAZON
lectroglide's Avatar
And how much space do the Guillows kits need typically?

if you mean flying space , that depends on many things and how the models setup, weather conditions play a big part with those models
bottom line is , stay away from any "model magnets" trees or high bldgs. and find the biggest field you can. you can control the model with right/left motor thrust and a rudder tab for tight or wide turns. but thiers much more to it than that
Last edited by lectroglide; May 17, 2019 at 11:59 AM.
May 17, 2019, 01:18 AM
Or am I...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lectroglide
And how much space do the Guillows kits need typically?

if you mean flying space , that depends on many things and how the models setup, weather conditions play a big part with those models
bottom line is , stay away from any "model magnets" trees or high bldgs. and find the biggest field you can. you can control the model with right/left motor thrust and a rudder tab for tight or wide turns.
I was thinking the smallest size field they would comfortably fly in with no wind. Like a baseball diamond? Or a football field. I was aware of setting the trims already but dont know how tight I can reasonably expect them to turn.
May 17, 2019, 08:01 AM
Registered User
http://www.themmmclub.com/

That is the link to the Free Flight Club in the Denver area. They fly on an 88,000 acre field. That isn't a typo, 88,000 acres.

This is the link to the National Free Flight Society
https://freeflight.org/

NFFS has a lots of info available.

AMA website has all of the rules for any event available at no charge.
May 17, 2019, 12:06 PM
BOYCOTT SCAMAZON
lectroglide's Avatar
quote { but dont know how tight I can reasonably expect them to turn.

flight radius is up to you......too tight and itll nose in, too loose and it might fly away, ya gotta experiment
Last edited by lectroglide; May 17, 2019 at 11:50 PM.
May 17, 2019, 04:12 PM
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Norm Furutani's Avatar
The MMM is a great bunch of folks! Best way to get into FF. There are a bunch (too many!) of rules for FF competition. They are listed by category here: https://freeflight.org/competition/free-flight-rules/






Quote:
Originally Posted by dan berry
http://www.themmmclub.com/

That is the link to the Free Flight Club in the Denver area. They fly on an 88,000 acre field. That isn't a typo, 88,000 acres.

This is the link to the National Free Flight Society
https://freeflight.org/

NFFS has a lots of info available.

AMA website has all of the rules for any event available at no charge.
May 17, 2019, 04:30 PM
Registered User
We often have contests inside a gym, but there's no wind there*. Depending on what you build and how light it is, there's almost no lower limit to the turning radius, though some of the tightest turning planes would be very vulnerable to any thermal at all. This video should convey what's possible with stick and tissue scale models:
Golden Age Mass Launch Winthrop Feb 2016 (1 min 1 sec)

Most Guillow stuff, unless you're building to one of their plans from before WW II, Will take a little more space due to weight. For reference, I flew a Guillow Javelin, built with the atrociously heavy materials in the kit, in MIT's Dupont Gym:
http://news.mit.edu/sites/mit.edu.ne...?itok=9dncL3Dg or in the attachment here
I've even flown a nearly stock Herr Cessna 180 in a 50 foot square cafeteria, but that's pushing it. If I'd used my own, light wood, it would have been a bit easier.

The problem is that, even if the model is circling tightly, the lightest breeze can carry your model a long way. Let's say you catch a thermal and have a two minute flight. A 3 mph breeze will carry your model over 500 feet downwind.

These days, you can get incredibly light radio gear and fly the same models RC. I don't know about the legality, but the smaller ones are obviously quite safe. I'm sure you could fly a UMX Radian in a gym, and a Vapor Lite in a living room (but almost never outside). When one of these got banged up, you could take the equipment and put it in a model you built, though in the latter case it had better be a very light model.

I hear that the Guillow wood is not as heavy these days, but the current kits I'm aware of use too much of it.
If you really want your models to fly well, you can do better than Guillow. For instance:
Easy Built Models
Volare Products
Diels Engineering
Sig (although sometimes they have used heavy wood in the past)
You can find a list of more vendors here"
http://flyingacesclub.com/wp/links/

If you don't have FF experience, you may want to fly something simple. For instance, a Sig Themal Dart, which I built as a kid. It flew fine. If that's TOO simple, another step up would be Dick Baxer's Pussycat. All the examples of the small one that I've seen fly quite well, and it's easy to trim. Plus it's all straight sticks, except for the nose block, making a kit kind of pointless. I suppose a Sig Cub might be another alternative, but I haven't flown one. Another step up might be an embryo,though I haven't built one of those yet. Or the Javelin, I suppose.

*Unless you fly EZB's or someting. Then you'd know there was wind if any ventilation was turned on. Or even if it wasn't and convection dragged your model over to a wall after 5 minuts.
May 17, 2019, 09:24 PM
Registered User
im-sad, There was a thread back when by "Dave K" about how he built a Guillows model cutting out nearly half of the weight of the balsa wood. If I remember it was a 16 1/2" Hellcat. His technique of saving weight was for example, cutting the fuselage formers down to pretty much where the only wood remaining was the keel, and stringer notches. As well, he sanded the parts down in thickness to around 1/20" from 1/16". He cut out the insides of the wing ribs, and the perimeters of the stabilizer, and rudder were cut down. Dave ended up with a light weight model. Be sure you increase the wing dihedral. A kind of rule of thumb is to make the wing-tips level with the bottom of the canopy. That way you will have much more success flying in relatively smaller circles without spiral diving.

There really is no limit to free flight. Competition models are designed to fit into each of the respective competition classes, and so for each class other than the "Big E" which has no rules, there are rules to go by. I recently built a model with a 50+" wing-span. The thing to do is to try to build as light in weight as you possibly can. Balsa wood is available in differing weights. The Guillows kits with die-cut parts have pretty heavy wood. But some of them can fly very well if not all of them if built with care, and some wood shaving. The Easy Built Models kits can be difficult to build depending on which kit you are building. Some of their models have laser cut parts, and the balsa wood is hand selected, and very light. The Herr Engineering kits are really great, as well. I recently built a Dumas kit, and it went together well. I have yet to fly it this season.

Kevin
Last edited by kevin matthews; May 17, 2019 at 09:42 PM.
May 18, 2019, 01:43 AM
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Thanks for the info guys. I had seen the MMM flying club before but didnt know they had such a large flying field!

Im not looking to do competitive flying. For me having a collection of planes that I can fly without having to worry about RC laws etc is more what Im looking for. Just wind up, toss and enjoy it circle around for a bit. I just dont want to fly it in the park then have some guy yell at me saying thats not allowed.

I bought an Guillows 109 kit off a guy and am fumbling my way through it at the moment. He lost the plans so im using scans online to figure out how it goes together. So far I have finished half the fuselage.

Im guessing it will be a bit on the heavy side but well see. Havent used tissue and dope in a long time either so that will be fun.
May 19, 2019, 01:06 AM
Registered User
If it's too heavy for Denver, maybe you can try it someplace lower and colder when you get a chance. There's an awful lot of wood in that thing.

Check out how much less wood this design has:
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=6114

You might as well finish it, though. If necessary, you can go electric.
May 21, 2019, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln
If it's too heavy for Denver, maybe you can try it someplace lower and colder when you get a chance. There's an awful lot of wood in that thing.

Check out how much less wood this design has:
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=6114

You might as well finish it, though. If necessary, you can go electric.
Dang, didn't even think of the altitude. I'll try finish it and see how it does.

I see what you mean by the amount of wood though. This kit seems like it would be pretty bullet proof in comparison.
May 21, 2019, 01:56 PM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
Those smaller Guillows scale models are not great FLYING designs at the best of times. As already mentioned there is just too much wood and not enough model. Even if built using super light contest stock as designed they would be a big challenge.

If you're just after some free flight smiles in confined local parks and playing fields when the sports are not using them what about some simpler options? Things like hand or elastic catapult launched gliders? Or do an image search for "profile scale rubber models" and "no-cal scale". Anything like those strike you as fun? They are super simple to make and don't take much for cost.

Guillows themselves even had an old timey option that they've brought back to some extent in their 4500 series "mini models". They are super simple to build with their sheet balsa fuselage and tail surfaces and minimal parts count wings. Something like these either bought as kits from them or using the same idea making your own designs using simple three views could be an option. And an order for balsa, rubber, props and tissue from someplace of around $30 total would get you enough stuff to make a half dozen of such models easily.

Don't worry about the "designing" if you're not sure how. There's really nothing to them and in two paragraphs and one sketch you would have all the "rules" you need to make similar profile designs just fine.
May 21, 2019, 05:23 PM
Registered User
I've seen the Typhoon and the Fairchild fly ok. Also the Javelin, which I could probably say flies reasonably well if compared to scale models. However, many models from other companies ought to fly better than most Guillow offerings. with the possible exception of the 4000 series and maybe the 4500 series. Haven't seen any of them fly, but the Fly Boy is said to be the same as Comet's old Cloud Buster. The Cloud Buster didn't have nearly as much extra wood as most Guillow models.

It's a total guess but I expect if you do everything right you might get 30 seconds from the Bf-109.

I managed to find a video of another kit from the same series which seems to support the theory. Your model has less wing area, but it also has a skinner fuselage and is therefore probably a bit lighter.
F6F Hellcat, Guillows rubber powered kit, Easter flight (1 min 21 sec)


BTW, I just got an Easy Built Ritz ( https://easybuiltmodels.com/ff01.htm ). I'm hoping to fly it in P-30, though that means I'll need a slightly smaller prop than the one that comes with it. It seems like a very nice kit, with good wood, and it's very simple. If you can do a good job bending the wires, I'd be surprised if it didn't fly very well. Possibly too well. You will find that, when you think it's quite still, a model at 30 or 50 feet will experience a little bit of wind. Unless you're at a really big field, I suggest tying down the freewheel or, better, using a DT.

In case you have any doubts that a simple stick model can fly well:
54" Mega Phantom Flash (1 min 42 sec)

This might give you some idea how far a model can drift in light conditions if it flies well:
Geneseo 2015 - 1930s Rubber-Powered Endurance R.O.G. (1 min 47 sec)

Another example of the drift issue:
Rubber-Powered Mega Mass Launch, Wawayanda - 2015 (2 min 6 sec)

And no, they don't have to be that big to fly that long.
Rubber-Powered 16" SBC-3 Helldiver at Wawayanda (2 min 2 sec)

Geneseo 2018 - FAC Nats - Golden Hour & Extras #3 (5 min 48 sec)
May 22, 2019, 01:18 AM
B for Bruce
BMatthews's Avatar
Let's be fair though. Those small models built to far lighter design plans do not mass out like the smaller Guillows models. It's not the size. it's the relatively large mass of wood in the smaller size kits like that Me109.

Plus while those models look fantastic and fly well our OP sounds like he's looking for a low cost, rapid build sort of option. And that way if it ends up in a tree there is only a coffee or two of cost involved and a couple of hours of time. If built from plans with bulk materials some of those models are only a couple of bucks worth of material. But they are all many hours of time. Something like those profile Guillows models but done from our hero's own plans could be made for about a fiver at most if we include everything including the rubber. And a couple of hours to build such a thing is not out of the question.

Or did I take your intent wrongly and you're trying to show some other options that can be built more lightly and fly well at smaller sizes? If so then my apologies.
May 22, 2019, 02:56 AM
Registered User
One of those was a Guillow model from,the,same series. The others were not. I think Vance's ROG represents a reasonably small amount of work. The Ritz costs only $5 more than the Guillow kit. Even the gigantic Phantom Flash wouldn't be that much work, although it obviously uses far more wood.


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