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May 16, 2019, 03:01 PM
Time for me to Fly...
Mr. Wiz's Avatar
Thread OP
Discussion

Are many of the new planes pretty much the same?


When I bought my BAMF last year, I remember thinking that it looked like and pretty much flew like my Flitz 2, except the BAMF is a 4 in the pod design and the F2 isn't. Now I'm looking at the Falcon and the NRJ and thinking that they are pretty much just like the BAMF. Of course, I haven't flown an NRJ or a Falcon but am I right, are they very close to the same aerodynamic design as the others.... that being small, high AR, thin wings with a relatively high dihedral angle? And if so, don't they pretty much feel like the same plane in the air? I suppose to some degree that could be said of all DLG's but these 4 look to be closer to the same than any 4 planes I can think of for as long as I've been flying DLG's.
Last edited by Mr. Wiz; May 17, 2019 at 11:02 AM.
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May 16, 2019, 04:44 PM
I'm not as bad as they say.
I think Oleg was leaning toward XXLite territory with the falcon.
As to dihedral, I can't compare to bamf because mine committed suicide, but falcon and CX5 ain't got much between 'em.
Latest blog entry: AIrcraft I've built.
May 16, 2019, 04:52 PM
Transplant Chey WY from Reno
Thermaln2's Avatar
Mr Wiz,

I see the Kool-Aid you have been drinking has finally taking effect.! LOL

I knw what you mean and have been asking that question from my observation for something like 10 years. I had the same feelings when I was building my own ships and wanted toknow what the differences really were. If you look at the planes, there are only slight, and I do mean slight differences IMHO. That is not to say that there were not several planes the "re-set" the common characteristics , like the Snipe or the Flitz etc, but most of the lanes that I looked at are nearly the same.

For example, they can vary a bit in regard to area, but ARs were close. Tails had the same planform, but varied stab and rudder airfoils from the HT23s to a number of airfoils from GT. You might also notice that many designs are using the Zone based airfoil for the wings, but with just slight variation. We are looking at only very minor improvements and if then those improvements might not be as noticeable as we might like to see. However, in regard to fuselage designs, the placing of all servos in the pods versus placing servos in the wings only mattered when the wings became much too thin to accept the servos. Many designs have avoided thinner wing airfoils because they intended to put the servos in the wings. The Snipe, which really was just a housing over the pushrods that exited fuselages before, when we first put servos in the pods. There are so many other things that are common that address ease of assembly, or removal of flutter, that nearly all planes are the same.

The question I ask is what will be next? Right now I just see every new plane coming out in bulk quantities as being the same across manufacturer because the CNC machines allow easy fabrication.

What can we expect for the future? How creative are we going to be? Will we be going to more specialized planes, like using different golf clubs, for more specific tasks? Maybe so. We might get away from just varying ballast, which seems to be the only thing we change throughout the day.

In general I hope we have not hit the plateau of design because all we think now about is how to vary the tasks we are flying. I know I surely have new ideas, weird ones, but new ideas I'd like to try.

So I agree with you.

Chris

In
May 16, 2019, 07:40 PM
Have Fun and Just Fly!
l shems's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaln2
Mr Wiz,

I see the Kool-Aid you have been drinking has finally taking effect.! LOL

I knw what you mean and have been asking that question from my observation for something like 10 years. I had the same feelings when I was building my own ships and wanted toknow what the differences really were. If you look at the planes, there are only slight, and I do mean slight differences IMHO. That is not to say that there were not several planes the "re-set" the common characteristics , like the Snipe or the Flitz etc, but most of the lanes that I looked at are nearly the same.

For example, they can vary a bit in regard to area, but ARs were close. Tails had the same planform, but varied stab and rudder airfoils from the HT23s to a number of airfoils from GT. You might also notice that many designs are using the Zone based airfoil for the wings, but with just slight variation. We are looking at only very minor improvements and if then those improvements might not be as noticeable as we might like to see. However, in regard to fuselage designs, the placing of all servos in the pods versus placing servos in the wings only mattered when the wings became much too thin to accept the servos. Many designs have avoided thinner wing airfoils because they intended to put the servos in the wings. The Snipe, which really was just a housing over the pushrods that exited fuselages before, when we first put servos in the pods. There are so many other things that are common that address ease of assembly, or removal of flutter, that nearly all planes are the same.

The question I ask is what will be next? Right now I just see every new plane coming out in bulk quantities as being the same across manufacturer because the CNC machines allow easy fabrication.

What can we expect for the future? How creative are we going to be? Will we be going to more specialized planes, like using different golf clubs, for more specific tasks? Maybe so. We might get away from just varying ballast, which seems to be the only thing we change throughout the day.

In general I hope we have not hit the plateau of design because all we think now about is how to vary the tasks we are flying. I know I surely have new ideas, weird ones, but new ideas I'd like to try.

So I agree with you.

Chris

In
I would definitely say that planes are nowadays almost all of a good build quality.

But....

Never buy a plane you haven't seen and felt in real life.

It is a 500-1000 /$ investment.

If you fly competition, most pilots stick to one model type, and buy 3-4 planes.

So it's worth to drive up to the nearest competition, and ask one of the pilots of the plane you're interested in if you can have a look. Possibly even fly it.

Any pilot asking me can fly my planes, some may launch it as well.

I've seen all kind of setups nowadays:
2 in the pod, 4 in the pod, normal canopy, slide over nosecone, central servo tray by prolonged fuse, top/bottom servo tray by open fuse and slide over nose.

Ballast systems differ also from plane to plane:
Snipe 1 and revolution having the simplest, njr having impossible for competitive flight.

And then wing types: top wing, bottom wing, separable wing.

And then pushrod connections: forked quick connect (vortex, revolution), ball connectors (snipe2, not as practical as I thought), simple pushrods as nrj, complex pushrods as snipe 1.

So in short, it's two things:

Flying characteristics differ from plane to plane.

Construction and technical setup differ from plane to plane.

Both need to match your personal flying style and objectives.

But there are hardly any bad planes anymore.
Last edited by l shems; May 17, 2019 at 01:12 AM.
May 17, 2019, 10:44 AM
plays with toy planes
this phenomenon is commonly referred to as a Golden Age.
May 17, 2019, 11:14 AM
Time for me to Fly...
Mr. Wiz's Avatar
Thread OP
Part of what I'm seeing now is lower prices for some of these DLG's and I believe that may be due to the fact that the design for them has finally plateaued. An MFG can get more mileage out of a set of molds than he used to. That's good for the wallet but maybe not as exciting as it used to be. I remember when I bought my first Fr3ak after I'd been flying a Blaster 3. What a huge performance gain that was! I felt the same way when I bought my first Snipe but little by little the amount of those performance gains have shrunk. Maybe it's just me but they feel like the differences are all but gone. But then I went back to flying only NXT's. Why? They are a little different than the planes I mentioned in the OP and I like the way they fly better... but the NXT is now in very limited production. I fear one day, I'll have no choice but to buy one of these newer planes..... unless some people besides myself would like a little different handling plane.
May 17, 2019, 11:34 AM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
tom43004's Avatar
Designs converge... then diverge.... it's a sine wave.

I wouldn't expect to see anything radically change in DLGs for a bit, simply because there are only a few places in the world that are mass producing them. Tooling up for a new ship is easy relatively speaking now. I've done it two or three times.... but tooling up for mass production needs to have promise of strong sales behind it.

Materials need to go through another revolution before we see large, noticeable performance gains IMHO. Evolution will happen for sure, but I don't see any "smack you in the face" type of changes coming without composites advances driving it.
May 17, 2019, 11:34 AM
Registered User
eitanro's Avatar
Mike, you really like setting up fires... LOL
It's like asking which radio is the best
May 17, 2019, 11:41 AM
Registered User
Did Tom put the Brandy project on the back burner? That would have been a good plane. Part of me wants a plane like the Fr3ak, plain Kevlar nose and minimal wing graphics, I missed out on those times as I wasn’t flying dlg back then, something with a special ‘home built’ feel to it.
May 17, 2019, 11:45 AM
Father of Fr3aK, DLG Pilot
tom43004's Avatar
Brandy is sharing time with an F5J project. I recently got the shop running again and I have a batch of 6 Brandys partially done. I may offer the design out to a mass producer after I get more testing time. The last one died in testing and I made some small tweaks to the design... only one has been produced since and that was given to a pilot in Michigan last fall. I'll be completing a couple of them soon to fly at NATs over here.

I would not call Brandy revolutionary. More an evolution based on feedback from NXT and trying to make it more pilot friendly.
May 17, 2019, 05:50 PM
Wayne Wimbish
wdwimbish's Avatar
Hi Mike,

When I went from flying the classic Stream to the Stream NXT there was a real step change in performance as you have noted in some of your transitions. The Flitz2 that I recently acquired performs pretty much like the NXT as well.

I would have been ready to say that all the top end designs were pretty close but when I began flying the Vortex3 it had a similar step change up from the NXT. It was significantly better (for me).

Just watched Pierre's latest video giving his thoughts on the BAMF, Vortex3, and the NRJ. Sounded like he thought the NRJ was a step change level design. At least it will be a design worth watching.

Wayne
Last edited by wdwimbish; May 18, 2019 at 08:45 PM.
May 17, 2019, 10:47 PM
Time for me to Fly...
Mr. Wiz's Avatar
Thread OP
That’s interesting, Wayne. I dont think the Flitz2 handles anything like the NXT. It’s faster than the original Flitz but it still turns like a Flitz does.... and like a BAMF does. I like the Vortex 3. I think it’s a similar flying plane to an NXT.... but it’s slightly different.... maybe not quite as fast but it seems to turn about the same.
May 18, 2019, 03:11 AM
Registered User
I’m currently shopping around for a new plane, probably a pair that I’ll keep and fly for the next couple years and that will take me into my first comps this year. It’s proving really difficult to make a choice as some people’s opinions are highly biased, (no one here) and others differ slightly on what you think of the flying characteristics of each plane, and that’s normal.

Looking back now I should have just kept my Snipes and cut my teeth on them a while longer and served my ‘apprenticeship’ they were very good planes (still are) and still with full support from the manufacturer.

I currently have a NXT and while I know it’s still possibly at this current time to still get another made, which is what I was gonna do, it’s slowly fading away so I’m looking/asking around about the more current designs. All the well know ones are on my list really BAMF, CX5, Vortex 3, Snipe 2.

When you guys talk about how they turn, is it possible to describe further what you think they feel like, how they behave? I’m not worried if your opinions differ, I’d just like to know what you think they fly like. Since I maybe buying a pair, I’m taking more time this time around at coming to a decision on what plane I’m going with.
May 18, 2019, 06:17 AM
In F3J size does matter!
roydor's Avatar
Mark,
Let me offer a little piece of advice, I think you should take your NXT and go compete at your next league event. You’ve been on RCG for a while and have gone through some models already, what’s holding you back from flying in competitions isn’t your equipment, you can still win competitions today with a Snipe, NXT and any of the “older” designs. You should go to a competition and find out where your strengths and weaknesses lie. Having a model that launches 2 meters higher for a 70 m launcher won’t really help a 50 m launcher as the height difference will be around 1 m. Being able to move upwind with 20 grams more or less won’t help you if you can’t find and work thermals etc.
Also see whay other are flying and how there models are doing in the things you find yourself lacking.
This would be a better use of your time on the field and the things you will learn in your first competition will dwarf anything you will learn in the next 6-12 months by flying alone, in both quality and quantity.

Go fly in a competition and make a huge leap forward

Roy
May 18, 2019, 06:28 AM
Registered User
sparrow1's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by roydor
This would be a better use of your time on the field and the things you will learn in your first competition will dwarf anything you will learn in the next 6-12 months by flying alone, in both quality and quantity.

Go fly in a competition and make a huge leap forward

Roy
Agreed
Talking from experience


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