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May 16, 2019, 01:41 AM
Just an earth-bound misfit
Not this . . . ₿^}
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May 16, 2019, 10:17 AM
Registered User
GoatZilla's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_OH
??? 3"ers have ugly rich flight times ???
You're such a Johnny-come-lately consumer whore that you think dropping some money on a few toys lets you talk like this. ₿^}

There's nothing particularly magic about the 2" or 3" size, it's simply that at this state of the technology, the weight of the the things that don't keep a quad in air overshadow the things that do keep it in the air, and that breaking point seems to be around 2". The screws, the fixtures, the threaded inserts, the canopies, the thickness of the epoxy overcoat on the carbon fiber, etc.

I kind of don't want to bring other quads into this, but the easiest and most direct example of this would be the Babyhawk-R.

When that thing was announced, everyone was slamming the preorder buttons.

They got their units in, and everything was awesome. The general consensus was "This thing flies great..." (so I don't know what the stability comparison even means when there's an FC handling that)

"...but the flight time is too short." Spoiler alert: dumping a larger battery on there yielded quickly diminishing returns.

It wasn't until they upgraded it to 2.5" or 3" that people were really happy with it, and that was specifically because of the better flight time.

If you don't believe me, go to the Babyhawk-R thread and ask if you should buy the 2" or go for the 2.5/3", and make sure to ask "why".

The battery thing I'll deal with later.
May 16, 2019, 12:52 PM
Registered User
GoatZilla's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_OH
I won't spend money on batteries unless they're on sale, and cheap . . . I think WAY too many batteries are ridiculously high priced . . . and I won't waste my money, any amount, on some tiny little pos battery that won't keep me in the air for 5 minutes . . . I've never used those bs worthless little 250 batteries that came with the Mobula on it, and don't even use them on my 65 brushed anymore. They can't even keep that airborn for 5 minutes.
Interesting.

Again, this class has popped up because it’s riding on the ecosystem of parts provided by the whoops. The unintended consequence is that these two classes share a lot of parts. Canopies, cameras, FCs, grommets, mounts, etc.

When you stray from this formula, you start breaking the sharing, and of all the things to break compatibility with, the batteries are possibly the most painful.

Hypothetically, I already have a whoop with 10 batteries. I can assemble a new quad with most of the same parts and have radically different performance -- and share the batteries.

If I put together an “FPV bugout bag”, I can throw a whoop and a toothpick in there… and only one type of battery.

Consequently, if the first thing you do with your toothpick is… immediately run online to buy new batteries, you have lost. All you are doing now is burning money. (The only "save" here is that there are larger whoops now that probably really can use a 525mah battery.)

So I agree with you -- in fact, I agree so much I do not know why you are even talking at me instead of questioning the sanity of someone who preordered a quad without even seeing 1 flight demo video posted only to turn around and immediately start buying another class of batteries for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_OH
Like I've said before, if you're sitting there, holding your quad and putting a battery in it, and I'm still flying . . . I WIN !!
Well, I don’t see you flying, so your winning days seem to be behind you. ₿^}
May 16, 2019, 01:31 PM
Just an earth-bound misfit
If I said "pretty rich" people would think it's expensive to fly them . . .

Actually, I bought, and then cancelled a Leader 3, because the seller emailed me and said it wasn't in stock and could be a bit. I picked that because besides the good reviews, Solo and others said they got really good flight times . . . even 7 - 8 minutes . . . on a bigger battery. He also mentioned the KK 138 and even the new Diatone R349 fly well over my 5 minutes . . . on a bigger battery . . .

The biggest reason I've passed on a number of what a lot of people must think are really good quads is because of lame flight times. If you're not going to keep me in the air at least 5 minutes, you're not getting my money either . . . Everyone has their priorities, and my first is staying in the air.

My Whoops are my favorite fliers, and I fly them 10 to 1 over any of my others. I know they're tiny and super light, and to a lot of people, even a couple grams make a difference to them in the way the thing flies. I've also read people saying anything bigger than the 65s aren't even a real Whoop. I'm perfectly fine with the way my big block & brushless Whoops fly on my 450s, 550s & 600s . . . even doubled up on my Mobula. Other than more flight times, I don't notice any difference how they fly using any of them.

If you don't have one by you, I'll be happy to forward your info to my local B/C club, as long as Tuesday afternoons will work for you . . . ₿ↄ}
May 16, 2019, 02:15 PM
Just an earth-bound misfit
Haha . . . I shoulda waited a few to post . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatZilla
Interesting.
So I agree with you -- in fact, I agree so much I do not know why you are even talking at me instead of questioning the sanity of someone who preordered a quad without even seeing 1 flight demo video posted only to turn around and immediately start buying another class of batteries for it.
Sure you do. Does it do any good talking to a stump??

I completely get the bigger battery/more weight/trade off thingy on both flight characteristics and flight times. Nigel was probably the most influential in getting me started building . . . well, plugging together . . . my Whoops, and he prefers smaller and lighter too. I've barely been into these for a year, and especially the FPV. I'm just starting to get the hang of Acro enough where the little kids in the neighborhood have started to came back outside when I'm flying . . . staying close to the house though . . . Maybe when I could fly like you all with your flips and loops and stuff, the little weight difference would matter, but I'm not there yet . . .

The main reason I came to this site is so I don't spend my money on a sounds/seems good quad and end up with a piece of electronic junk. This hobby is tons cheaper than paintball ever was, but it still ain't cheap. I don't mind spending money on this hobby, but I don't have enough to play Guinea Pig with every other quad that comes out either. I can easily wait on a review, or two, or three . . . before I fork it out . . . better than just getting forked . . .


Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatZilla
Well, I don’t see you flying, so your winning days seem to be behind you. ₿^}
If you are really having that much trouble falling asleep at night, I haven't yet, but I'd try to record a flight or two and email it over to help ya out . . .
Last edited by Brian_OH; May 16, 2019 at 02:45 PM.
May 16, 2019, 03:01 PM
Registered User
Walk the Walk
Dont talk the talk
May 16, 2019, 07:13 PM
We are not men, we are DEVO 7e
xanuser's Avatar
Even more
(Nothing like watching a newcomer getting eaten by the goat...)
May 16, 2019, 11:47 PM
Just an earth-bound misfit
what the firetruck ?????

NO reading comprehension skills in the peanut gallery, obviously . . .

Maybe if I type slowly . . .
Last edited by Brian_OH; May 17, 2019 at 12:54 AM.
May 17, 2019, 12:38 PM
Registered User
passerbyeus's Avatar
Here is the killer whale spcmaker toothpick..2s 525mah ..about the same setup as the phantom.
Spcmaker killer whale toothpick style (3 min 22 sec)
Last edited by passerbyeus; May 17, 2019 at 12:53 PM.
May 17, 2019, 01:56 PM
Just an earth-bound misfit
Quote:
Originally Posted by passerbyeus
Here is the killer whale spcmaker toothpick..2s 525mah ..about the same setup as the phantom.
Nice flight, you put it out there a ways, looks like you got really good range with it. Moves along pretty good too . . . Cam doesn't seem to like that building though.

They come with the red JST, but I got a good deal, and they're running it again, on some Gens ace 520mAh 30Cs for less than $3 a batt. Shipping seemed really high, but for 5 of them, it came out to a little over $4 a pop, but still, a good price. I got them for my Mantis with 1102/9kvs, just 2S, and it's a heavy little thing, but I can get my 5 minute flights with them, and plenty of punch . . . these lightweights should do even better . . .
May 17, 2019, 10:49 PM
Registered User
GoatZilla's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by passerbyeus
Here is the killer whale spcmaker toothpick..2s 525mah ..about the same setup as the phantom.
https://youtu.be/-g862lFTQxA
I don't know whether to do this here or in the SPC thread...

That actually met my expectations. I mean, it met my flight expectations... for a proper Toothpick flying on a ~350-450g battery. And it met expectations for how it is actually configured. Because that was what I was expecting, props-in-view and all.

Man you guys murder your batteries though.

What you see here is a vicious cycle. You cobble together a setup that's >10g overweight, so you try to compensate the T:W with higher KV. But that kills your battery, so you pile a larger battery on... which again hurts your T:W. And it's not guaranteed that you'll even see the benefits of that KV anyways.

We do have data for 1103 and 65/66mm props, conveniently at 8000kv on 2s. Yes, I know the Killer Whale is some higher KV. Let's just run with the numbers.

1103 build part 1 thrust testing (10 min 58 sec)


4A current @ 98g thrust x 4 = 392g

40g quad + 18g battery = 58g -> 6.76:1
40g quad + 20g battery = 60g -> 6.53:1
40g quad + 26g battery = 66g -> 5.94:1
51g quad + 29g battery = 80g -> 4.9:1 <= this is where you guys are tanking in at

Per your own flight stats, you're doing 19A max pull, so things at least appear cromulent.

So watch the video again. Does that look like a T:W of even 6:1?

It looks exactly like the specs indicate -- a maybe-5:1 ratio punchout. This is probably why KB recommends keeping AUW under 70g.

I'm not saying it's bad. It's definitely flyable. You've got some video issues going on, but power system-wise it's flyable. (You're getting a lot of noise whenever you punch it or even just descending into wash. Again, sometimes this is because your batteries are being murdered.)

I wouldn't buy another set of oddball $8 packs to feed it though. Forget that noise (literally). Not if I knew that just a little more discipline would yield same-or-better results with the packs I already have. I mean I'm no Nick Burns.


Look, you guys are free to determine your own destinies. If you think this is a good deal, then by all means, slam that preorder button.
May 18, 2019, 12:03 AM
We are not men, we are DEVO 7e
xanuser's Avatar
Ah an oldie but a goodie. Where the heck did Dave Woods go anyhoo?
too bad he didn't try snipping a lil of those yellow triblades and also the 66m parrots... :shhh:
May 18, 2019, 09:09 AM
Registered User
passerbyeus's Avatar
..i fly fast and hard and pretty much over 50% the whole time if you relax with it and have fun you get over 4mins on a 450mah..that spot where I fly has some kind of electrical box that gives my vtx inference..the best thing to do before anyone should try to give facts on a drone is actually fly it yourself first if not you are only speculating ..I think the weight here is actually darn near perfect it's floaty but not to floaty for momentum doing acro ...the only reason I'm giving the drone hype is because I do have experience I've been the rc flying field for years and years now ..I go by hands on experience not the numbers game or what reviewers say and I pretty much buy and build every new thing that comes out and this spcmaker drone and the toothpick style is a game changer for sure..it's going in the right direction..it pretty much covers the micro class one could stop flying anything between 2-3" because it covers that range on how they all fly in just one style..so my biggest advice is to just buy one or build one the same way and it will make you a believer or I would not say it..��



Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatZilla
I don't know whether to do this here or in the SPC thread...

That actually met my expectations. I mean, it met my flight expectations... for a proper Toothpick flying on a ~350-450g battery. And it met expectations for how it is actually configured. Because that was what I was expecting, props-in-view and all.

Man you guys murder your batteries though.

What you see here is a vicious cycle. You cobble together a setup that's >10g overweight, so you try to compensate the T:W with higher KV. But that kills your battery, so you pile a larger battery on... which again hurts your T:W. And it's not guaranteed that you'll even see the benefits of that KV anyways.

We do have data for 1103 and 65/66mm props, conveniently at 8000kv on 2s. Yes, I know the Killer Whale is some higher KV. Let's just run with the numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m5eiP4JOU4&

4A current @ 98g thrust x 4 = 392g

40g quad + 18g battery = 58g -> 6.76:1
40g quad + 20g battery = 60g -> 6.53:1
40g quad + 26g battery = 66g -> 5.94:1
51g quad + 29g battery = 80g -> 4.9:1 <= this is where you guys are tanking in at

Per your own flight stats, you're doing 19A max pull, so things at least appear cromulent.

So watch the video again. Does that look like a T:W of even 6:1?

It looks exactly like the specs indicate -- a maybe-5:1 ratio punchout. This is probably why KB recommends keeping AUW under 70g.

I'm not saying it's bad. It's definitely flyable. You've got some video issues going on, but power system-wise it's flyable. (You're getting a lot of noise whenever you punch it or even just descending into wash. Again, sometimes this is because your batteries are being murdered.)

I wouldn't buy another set of oddball $8 packs to feed it though. Forget that noise (literally). Not if I knew that just a little more discipline would yield same-or-better results with the packs I already have. I mean I'm no Nick Burns.


Look, you guys are free to determine your own destinies. If you think this is a good deal, then by all means, slam that preorder button.
Last edited by passerbyeus; May 18, 2019 at 09:49 AM.
May 18, 2019, 12:48 PM
Registered User
GoatZilla's Avatar
Come on man. Composition skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by passerbyeus
I go by hands on experience not the numbers game
No, see, when you say stuff like "3 min", "450mah", "525mah", "50% throttle", "2-3 inch", those are all numbers.

So it's very clear you do play "the numbers game".

What you don't do is math; specifically operators on numbers. And I get it, K-12 (that's not an operation, it's a title. Oh dear.) is struggling in the US. Addition (subtraction), multiplication (division) are off the table. Numbers: yes. Operators: no! Vote "NO" on Proposition 1+1!


Quote:
Originally Posted by passerbyeus
that spot where I fly has some kind of electrical box that gives my vtx inference..
Man, your video quality is so bad that even geotric_v2 noticed it. I promise what follows is not math.

This phantom electrical box follows you around the field, and knows to specifically interfere with you when you hit the throttle or drop into wash.

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That doesn't look like electrical box interference.

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That doesn't either.

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That doesn't either.

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That doesn't either.

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And that doesn't either.

What it does look like is this:

LOW ESR Capacitor // Before and After Detailed Tests (7 min 31 sec)


Wait... did your phantom electrical box follow this guy to his house and only interferes with his signal when he throttles up too?

I suppose that you're also going to tell us that the props are also not in view; what we are seeing on the sides is electrical box interference?

Oh wait. I know. You're going to tell me to go fly *at this exact spot* and then come back and talk, right?

And while I'm at it, what the Hell is going on with your used MAH counter?

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NO MATH.

THIS HAS BEEN DECLARED A MATH FREE ZONE.
May 18, 2019, 12:54 PM
Registered User
GoatZilla's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by xanuser
Ah an oldie but a goodie. Where the heck did Dave Woods go anyhoo?
too bad he didn't try snipping a lil of those yellow triblades and also the 66m parrots... :shhh:
I dunno, but with him and Kiwi gone, it seems almost nobody is doing testing anymore. And without that data, the forum turns into, well, this.


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